Rethinking the Citizen Experience Online

December 6, 2022

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Rethinking the Citizen Experience Online

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Jim Love, CIO & Chief Content Officer, IT World Canada (ITWC)

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Victoria Abeling, Senior Director, Americas Commercial Security Sales, VMware Carbon Black
Craig McLellan, CEO & Founder, ThinkOn
The Honourable Kaleed Rasheed, Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery, Government of Ontario

Head Table Guests
Jehan Karsan, Executive Director, Empire Club of Canada
Mai Nguyen, Ph.D., Head of Government Relations & Public Policy, VMware Canada
Paul Yeung, Director, Public Affairs, JTI-Macdonald Corp, Director

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon. Welcome to the 119th season at the Empire Club of Canada. I'm delighted to be here with you and our esteemed speakers today. Thank you for your participation and support. This incredible community of colleagues and peers is the driving force behind our mandate to engage, debate, and advance on issues of importance to Canadians. Welcome. My name is Sal Rabbani, and I'm the President of the Board of Directors of the Empire Club of Canada.

To formally begin this afternoon, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering today on the traditional and treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wyandot Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the traditional territory on which you work and live.

The Empire Club is a not-for-profit organization, and we'd like to recognize our sponsors who generously support the club and make these events possible and complimentary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our lead event sponsor Insight; and thank you to our season sponsors, Bruce Power and Hydro One.

If you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen. We invite questions from the audience by accessing the Q&A function under the video player.

Canada is often recognized as a leader in digitization, digitalization. However, some may say that implementing IT modernization into our government structure has proved difficult. Today's discussion will help us understand the citizen experience when engaging with governments online, and how digital strategy surrounding digital IDs and personal data protection can improve how governments deliver accessible and efficient resources. The Honourable Kaleed Rasheed, Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery of the Government of Ontario, is working to make Ontario a world-leading digital jurisdiction. He's a champion of Canada's tech industry, and we will welcome him on stage to speak about his recent accomplishments and challenges.

To get started, I'd like to invite today's moderator, Jim Love, CIO and Chief Content Officer IT World Canada, and our esteemed panellists, to have a discussion on the ideal citizen experience. Jim, over to you.

Opening Remarks by Jim Love, CIO & Chief Content Officer, IT World Canada (ITWC)
Thank you, Sal. Thank you very much. I wasn't nervous till I saw the video of all the people who've occupied this stage. Wow. Welcome to our panel discussion on rethinking the citizen experience online. I'm Jim Love. As I've said, as was said, I'm the CIO and Chief Content Officer of IT World Canada, or ITWC for short. We've got a couple of great panellists, and we'll be joined later by the Minister himself on this. So, we've got Craig McLellan, CEO and founder, ThinkOn. Craig, welcome.

Craig McLellan, CEO & Founder, ThinkOn
Hello. Great to be here.

Jim Love
And Victoria Abeling, Senior Director of America's commercial security sales for VMware Carbon Black. Welcome, Victoria.

Victoria Abeling, Senior Director, Americas Commercial Security Sales, VMware Carbon Black
Welcome. Hello. Good afternoon, everyone.

Jim Love
I always prefer a brief introduction. I always hate those ones where you feel like people are reading your obituary in there. So, I'm gonna lead let the panellists introduce themselves in there as they come in. So, Victoria, just want to tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Victoria Abeling
Sure. Hello, everyone, Victoria Abeling. As Jim said, I'm the Senior Director for Carbon Black VMware. I run all of the Americas, including Canada. And previously, I've also had worked in the government and public sector for VMware for many years. Excited to be here. Thank you.

Jim Love
And Craig, tell us a little bit about yourself?

Craig McLellan
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm the founder and CEO of an organization called ThinkOn. We're an Ontario-based cloud service provider that focuses on, heavily, on data. The subjects today are very near and dear to my heart. We service organizations across the globe, actually, from our Canadian headquarters.

Jim Love
Great. So, let's talk about this. Our panel's titled, "Rethinking the Citizen Experience." But I think it's very fair to say that the, you know, the citizen experience means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So, can you share what your vision of the citizen experience is—Victoria, do you want to jump in?

Victoria Abeling
Sure. Yeah, as you may know, VMware is a global cloud computing and virtualization company. We have offices all over the world, including Canada. We employ thousands of people. And we're one of the world's largest SAS providers. We are committed to government IT from the Americas and Canada. We also focus on modernizing and reducing IT complexity. And this year, VMware launched its first ever National Citizen Services Satisfaction Survey, designated and designed to understand the citizen experience when engaging with our governments online. As governments create, you know, ambitious digital strategies, including digital IDs, personal data protection, and we look to improve online experience in general, VMware really wanted to participate and help understand what a good online experience looks like, and how we can make that better. And we're excited to share some of the key findings, specifically from the Ontario data, with the Empire Club today. And hopefully, have some good talking points for everyone.

Jim Love
Yeah. Victoria, I read the survey—I got my preview, my copy prior to this—I think it's, there's some interesting stuff in there. We're going to talk about that as well. Craig, do you want to just jump in and tell us a little bit about the citizen experience? And look at this—how can you, how can you time it better? I'm just about, I'm just going to the second one, Minister, and then we'll, we'll come to you. So, we were just talking about what—and Craig will come in on this—but we're just talking about what the citizen experience means to us. So, I'll let Craig go, and then I'll introduce you.

Craig McLellan
Great, great to see you, Minister. So, for me, as a resident of Ontario, I look at this through two different lenses. I look at it through my business lens, I look at it through my consumer lens. So, as a consumer of government services, it's about right place, right time, right data, right level of trust. It's like a checklist for me. And you know, what I, what I really care about is minimizing my personal attack surface. Meaning, I have one way of logging in for government services, and I rely on that as my authentication mechanism, not having different authentication mechanisms for different ministries, for example. So, as a citizen, that's the way I want to consume services. And for me, as a digital first person, I always want to have primary access to the right functions.

So, for example, I thought I lost my licence two weeks ago. And I've been renewing my plates online, and then I realized, oops, I cannot receive or order a replacement physical licence without attending an office. So, to me, that was an example of an 'oh, I think we could do better.' But I'm sure there's lots of great security reasons why. So, you know, I'm tempered with that. So, as a consumer, that's, that's the answer to the question. And then as a provider, what I look for is a consistent framework, and a consistent framework to allow providers to participate in the economy, with the government leading the vision of privacy and data security and making it clear that there's an easy way to collaborate. Because I find that in the dark corners are where bad things begin. And we have to make sure there's no dark corners. And the government needs to lead that of course.

The Honourable Kaleed Rasheed, Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery, Government of Ontario
No, no, absolutely. And I must say that I feel that, as a province, we are so behind when it comes to technology, and the services that we can provide to Ontarians using technology. And that's the roadmap or the mandate that I have from Premier Ford is to use technology to provide better services to the residents, but also businesses of this province. So, your example of Service Ontario is what exactly what we are hoping to achieve in the next few months or, hopefully, within this mandate.

Jim Love
Right. The Honourable Kaleed Rasheed, Minister of Public and Businesses Service Delivery for the Government of Ontario. Thank you for remembering businesses as well in there. And the whole question of what the citizen experience means to all of us, I think, is important in there. But I think it's fair to say, over the past few years, there have been, there have been a lot of accomplishments by all levels of government. Minister, you talked about Service Ontario, which is—I live in Northern Canada, or Northern Ontario, it's a, it's a godsend to us to be able to have that, those services in here. And I think it's been a great example. But over the past few years, governments have done a lot, I think, making services more accessible, responsive, and creating, or at least moving towards it. And I think, Craig, I take your point that there's always a place we can go, and we'll talk about that. But Minister, can you share some of the accomplishments today, some of the things that you're proud of in the government that we've done to make services more accessible?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Thank you so much, Jim, and I appreciate the opportunity. Look, what we are doing right now within government is to bring more and more services online. As I said earlier, I feel like when it comes to technology—and again, that's just, that's—my thinking is that we are behind than other countries, or provinces. Like, for example, my brother, who lives in Sydney, Australia, has an app called NSW, which is almost like a Service Ontario app, that he has on his device. And he can get his driver's licence, health card, other government services done online, literally, at the tip of the finger and sitting at home. Why can we not do it here, in our in our province? So, that's, that's where we are heading.

We are really excited to partner with so many private sector organizations, we want—and Premier Ford said this many, many times, for him, it's all about customer service. Whether it's an individual or a business, we want to make sure that we are able to provide those services to the citizens of and the businesses of this province. Whether you're renewing your driver's licence, held card, your licence plate, things that we—because our objective is to make sure that we are providing, and making sure that the next generation is proud of what we are doing for them today.

I always say this, you know, my own father, I have said to him thousands of times that, you know, Dad, I'll renew your accessible parking permit by sitting here in the, in the office or at home, but he loves to go to Service Ontario. He will put his best suit on, he will go to Service Ontario, stand in the line. So, from there, I, my thinking is that every transaction online is one less person in line. That's how I look at it. So, so that's how I'm trying to make sure that individuals who would like to go to government offices to get services are able to get it. But also let us look at the future, and make sure that we are here to make life easy for the future generation as well, too.

Jim Love
Good stuff. Thank you, sir. Craig, any comments on that, on where we are today?

Craig McLellan
I think it's, you know, having been a supplier for some time to some of these back ends, I can tell you that it's been a wholesale change, I would say, over the last three to four years, with the level of—I won't use the word, aggressive is not the right word—but there's an eagerness, and I would say almost a common sense approach to, you know, prioritization, which is always wonderful. Because as a business, you crave common sense logic wherever possible, right? Because it allows you to actually engage more openly. So, that's, that's been great. But at the same time, I'll tell you, I haven't seen any compromising on the security side. It's still, you know, it's an onerous task to become vetted as a supplier and participant in the supply chain. And that's critical because, ultimately, trust is, you know—we have this amazing advantage being Canadians and being from Ontario, in that trust is a, is something that people just have in us. And we need to make sure that we never put that at risk. So, I think that the, what the ministry is doing, you know, under the leadership of the Minister and the team, is actually really good for the citizens.

Jim Love
Victoria, your comments?

Victoria Abeling
You know, I think the, I think having a digital identity and having security to access any government services is critical. I think about even my own experience, you know, next week, my driver's licence is expiring, and I have to go get that renewed. But if you had gone once before, you have to go in the next time. And so, there's some weird, you know, anomalies, when dealing with the government and services that are available. And so, having the option and the choice at your fingertips is always, you know, is always more enjoyable. And, you know, we have some data that we will point back to from our survey that sort of validate the ease of use and how important it is to have security, data—well, secure, your personal data secure, as well as intuitive systems for people who choose to work, or to access online.

Jim Love
Yeah, and I think it's, it's a, it's one of those things. The availability of services, it's not just, not just a convenience where I live—and I live two hours north of Toronto, in there—it's a necessity for many citizens who can't get out anymore, or who have trouble communicating, you know. They just can't get in a car in the middle of winter and drive by themselves. So, it gives them the freedom to be able to have those services. I want to go on to the survey. We talked about this earlier. VM did a survey, VMware did a survey, and it has some specific findings about Ontarians in there, which I thank you for—it's always great when we hear about Canadians and Ontarians in these surveys, and not just the world in general. So, it talked about the feelings about citizen experience. And not surprisingly, it reports that there's been a huge increase in citizens using digital services since the pandemic. And I confess, I knew that. But I was surprised that almost, the survey says almost 9 out of 10 Ontarians, have used online services, and almost 7 in 10 prefer to use online services. Victoria, do want to share some of the key findings of that survey?

Victoria Abeling
Sure. You know, when it comes to online services, I think, like you said, Jim, there was a huge influx and increase of activity around accessibility to your phone, whether you're on an iPhone or an Android, as well as even other digital assets. And one thing that Ontarians did state about that they care most from their online experience is that they want it to be simple, right? They want—with 70 percent of the respondents indicating that this has to be their top consideration. And with that comes enhanced privacy security measures. And 66 percent indicated that this would be you know, a second consideration when choosing to use any type of online service. A number of services available online that Ontario, Ontarians agreed that the more services available in one place, the better their experiences overall, and the more likely they would recommend or come back a second time and, you know, repeatable cases. But the data did suggest that we're not there yet. And I think, you know, the Minister said that, you know, here in the, when he was speaking about what we're, we've got big goals. Sixty-three percent of Ontarians are concerned about their personal data being stolen or misused when using these services. And 49 indicated that there are quite too many steps involved, or it's too many clicks, or it's the data is presented in a way that they found confusing. But they are willing to give it a chance, should it be presented in a way that helps them with navigation and understanding government websites.

Jim Love
Let's hold on the security for a few seconds, because I want to dive into, do a deeper dive into that. But Craig, any comments on the, on the what the survey was talking about in terms of what the service how we prefer our service to be delivered?

Craig McLellan
As a consumer? Makes absolute sense. I would have given the exact same answers, I think. So, what I like is that it's being shared publicly. And there's lots of heads nodding, I'm sure, both on and off camera. So, I'm actually quite pleased to hear the results.

Jim Love
Right. Minister, your comments on the findings of the survey.

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Absolutely, Jim. And Victoria, thank you for conducting the survey. It actually says, the message is what we are trying to deliver here as well, too, is that Ontarians, more and more Ontarians, would like to get their government services or are able to conduct government services online. And that's exactly what we are heading towards. And I know, Jim, we're going to talk about security and privacy, that is something so important to me. I come, prior to becoming the MPP, I was working for a private sector company. And I was—so, security and whether it's cyber security or privacy, it's so important. And especially from a government perspective, that, to your point, we want to build that trust in Ontarians to, for them to do business, whether it's online or in person, that they know that this government data is protected, and this government has their back.

Jim Love
And just, we've got a question in from someone in the audience. And you can just put them in the comments or the questions as well, and we'll try and cover those as well, as we're, while we're doing this discussion. So, thank you very much for that, and I'll, I will get to your question, the person who asked that. One of the key elements in the VMware survey—and you talked about it a bit, Victoria, there—was, and I have to say, it's clearly been my experience as well. As a Canadian publisher, when publishing and technology, I get emails every time we publish anything on digital identity. And some of them are [indiscernible] just leave it at that. But it is, it gets people excited. And there's this real and visceral reluctance or concern, or even fear about personal information, when it's shared with what should be a trusted source in there. Victoria, can you just cover some of those pieces from the survey as it as it relates to security and digital identity?

Victoria Abeling
I mean, digital ID is really a hot topic right now. I think if you saw the news this morning, even Turks and Caicos is now saying that they're going to go digital ID by 2025. And while obviously not in Canada, we're just starting to see smaller countries and sovereign countries start going that way. And this is a great question, right? I think this is the top of mind for a lot of, a lot of folks. And, as you guys mentioned, that a lot of federal, private and, you know, governments are looking to design what a digital ID looks like. The survey did state that almost two in three Ontarians are interested in a personal profile, if it allows for great SSO access to some of these government services. And coming from a cybersecurity company, you know, Carbon Black, we all hear this, I hear this daily with my customers, CSO's I talk to, government officials, you know, as well. But on the on the other side, you know, trust—I think maybe that was you, Craig, that was mentioning trust—trust is the number one reason for any reluctance in allowing anyone to have their personal data. And 39 percent are willing to share the data in exchange for these services if they are, you know, guaranteed, secure—and we can share these stats, obviously. And then, you know, a couple of the responders—and this was very consistent, actually, across the country—and it was no surprise that 92 percent of Ontario respondents cited security and privacy of information to be accessed with ease and convenience across it as one of the most important items when making these types of decisions. And I think if you're a stakeholder or a government entity listening to this, one of the key takeaways should be that this is, you know, something of the future that we want to get to. And digital IDs will be probably a common name or common term here, coming up shortly.

Jim Love
Very much. So. Craig, do you want to talk about this? You're obviously the, in the industry, and close to what was happening in this. And so, what can those in industry do to make cloud and online services more trusted by the public at large?

Craig McLellan
Well, a couple of quick thoughts. I would say one is, what's the saying? Sunlight's the best sanitizer. Talking publicly and sharing information publicly about your capabilities and your intent and how you're collaborating with the public sector, I think, is key. So, that's, you know, that really helps people appreciate, I think, that there's an effort being made. And then the backside of that, to me, is supply chain. You know, we've talked a lot about supply chain in the last two-and-a-half years, some of it from some very practical, rudimentary activities. But now in the digital world, the supply chain looks very different. If you think about it for a second, you know, at the federal level, we don't allow our telecoms to be owned by foreign interests. But at the same time, we allow computer infrastructure to be owned by foreign interests, which one could argue is 10 times more challenging. So, what the what the domestic suppliers need to do is to work very closely to public sector to provide complete transparency of the supply chain, so that we can then communicate how trustworthy the solution is the citizens' experience is, as opposed to a closed system. Which, I'm not suggesting that's been a closed system; I'm saying there's always opportunity to provide transparency across all levels of government.

Jim Love
Maybe I'll get controversial here in this, but you know, those of us in the industry recognize there are concerns about digital ID—as I said, I get letters all the time. I have to say, I think some of them are unfair, or in some cases unfounded. And we're willing to give up a huge amount of information on a form, or on Facebook, or a physical ID card—we'll gladly hand somebody our driver's licence. But we're hugely suspicious and reluctant when that's a digital experience. Minister, what can the government do, if anything, to make the public more comfortable?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Jim, I completely agree with both Victoria and Craig. I think the word trust is the most important word here. And as a government, we, like, one of the things, my responsibility is to make sure that any service or anything, whether it's digital credential, online services that we bring online, there is, the trust factor is there. We saw when we were working on the Ontario, Verify Ontario app—the COVID, the Government of Ontario COVID app—that we developed in-house here, earlier this year. The number one question was, is my data secure? Privacy, trust. And what we did was that we worked with the Privacy Commissioner from day one, even when we started from scratch, zero, building the app, we brought the Privacy Commissioner from day one. Not after building the app, but since day one. Because we wanted that, when we go out there in public, that we have the support of the Privacy Commissioner. So, we, whatever we do here in the government, we want to make sure that we have our, the support from different levels—whether it's the Privacy Commissioner, cybersecurity, or anything else—to build that trust, in Ontarians, that, first of all, the service that we are providing is secure, their data is secure. And only then we will be able to achieve the services or the targets that we have set for ourselves. So, I think trust is the number one thing in my opinion.

Jim Love
Great. Anything from the other panellists on that?

Craig McLellan
Involving the Privacy Commissioner from the very beginning is a brilliant stroke.

Victoria Abeling
M'hm (affirmative).

Craig McLellan
Key stakeholder, strong opinions, and you know, always thinking about the citizenry's requirements. So, that's, I mean, that's—Minister Rasheed, that it's a bold stroke. And it's a great call to do that. And I was close enough to some certain things that I did see that in action, and I've been a fan. As much as the guardrails that a Privacy Commissioner can put in place, it does really give us a, an environment where, I think, the art of the possible becomes a little more realistic. So, kudos to you on that.

Jim Love
I would say, in Ontario, we've had a great history of privacy commissioners. And being in, you know, with the advice of, "build it in now, don't try to bolt it on later." I commend you, Minister, for that strategy, because it's, it certainly isn't a—Victoria, any reaction that as well?

Victoria Abeling
Well, I was going to mention that—not surprising—part of the survey did say that there is still a big need for a 1-800 number to talk to a live agent, and also to have online chat. So, while we are talking about the future of, you know, digital transformation and personal data, with health cards and IDs, there is still a high need for making sure that there is help when needed, like a live agent or online chat as well.

Jim Love
Great. Yeah. I'm just gonna go to a couple of the questions that—we may have covered them, but I just, I want to respect the audience putting these questions in there. So, one says, I wonder about the data on accessing virtual health services. How did Ontarians feel, and are they more concerned about data privacy? I don't remember that from the survey. Was there anything particular in terms of health data in the survey, Victoria?

Victoria Abeling
It, there wasn't. But I'm gonna go—I saw that, so I started looking through, just to make sure I didn't miss something. I think we were very generic with the term data. And we're very, just, you know, the questions were very focused on, in general, government services. But there was nothing specific that called out health versus, you know, government ID, per se. It was just really map, personal data. So, you can argue that personal, you know, personal data would be, part of personal data would be health.

Jim Love
Yeah, certainly something I—my own doctor, I think, I was just so surprised that actually saw a computer on his desk, because he used to talk about not having the internet in his office, because it was—so I think we've, we've advanced the point where we are getting a lot more health and information on systems, and it is important to protect it. Craig, any comments on that?

Craig McLellan
Well, I'd say that I think it's one of the top two opportunities in front of the Minister's entire ministry to drive collaboration. Because despite, you know, we spend lots of money on healthcare, we're very, ver fortunate to have what we have. And we have to find ways to be more innovative and more collaborative. And I just went through a process of my fourth form for, effectively, the same thing with four different care providers. I think that particular area of the of the public sector is ripe for process automation, which leads itself to digital says citizenry support, but not at the risk of privacy. So, that's another opportunity to get the Privacy Commissioner involved early. Because oh, man, if there's anything that gets people hotter, it's losing control of their health record.

Jim Love
And, Minister, I think there's one—access to healthcare is a huge issue for all of us. And that's not really your portfolio, but it's still making that available, and accessible, and safe, is a real part of citizen services. Is that, is that something that you think about? I'm sure you do. But could you share those thoughts with us?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
No, absolutely, Jim. Actually, part of my ministry's mandate is to work with other ministries when it comes to any digital or technological move. I don't cost, I don't like to call myself the mothership, but that's what it is now. That any ministry within the government, whenever they are, whenever they are planning to implement anything when it comes to technology, they have to work with us. And that's why part of my direction to the ministry and other ministries is that when you're coming to us with some programs or services, the number one thing is for, that it has to be on cloud. Because we, as a government, are moving to a cloud infrastructure. Because I don't want mainframes systems to be in basements of ministries. And it goes back to what Victoria and Craig were talking about, the cybersecurity and the privacy.

So, so that's number one. Number two, my very first meeting after becoming the minister was with, was with actually Minister of Health, where we talked about the data, and health data. We want to make sure that we have the system in place. And this is all part of our data authority implementation, that we have the data available for others to access. But the thing that we are working on is, again, the privacy side. I can put data online, in the cloud, tomorrow—as we all know, it's not, it's a no brainer, it's easy. But then I need to also make sure that¬¬—because I have, I have 15 million Ontarians who are looking at me to make sure that their data is secured. So, in order to do that, I have to make sure that I'm earning their trust, and making sure that we are able to do things in a secured manner. As compared to a private organization, for me, I have 15 million stakeholders that I have to work with.

Jim Love
Don't you just wish some days maybe you'd gotten lands and forests, or something like that?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
But it's an exciting ministry. We are the game changer. And whatever we are doing today is for our—yes, this generation, but most importantly is for the next generation.

Jim Love
Great, yeah. Just going back to our audience again. Victoria, this this goes back to what you were talking about, the 1-800 number. So, he says, I'm 74 years young—yes, you are still young, trust me—and I believe that the government, in moving forward, must consider the way that we're one, some of us are one generation away from being computer literate. And the gentleman or lady goes on to say, I'm computer savvy—this is something that came up in the survey, but to have the 1-800 numbers well, for there—Victoria.

Victoria Abeling
Yeah, so, similar, right? I mean, I think that what one thing that came out of the survey was probably not surprising, that the respondents between 18 and 34 all, you know, would prefer some sort of online digital access. But we also have to be very careful to understand that we are, you know, Ontario is a very multicultural province. And we do have to think about accessibility outside the traditional criteria, to make sure that all Ontarians have access to the services. And I mentioned 1-800 calling, but also live chat. And, and then I also think, to echo that, "one person online is one less in line." That anyone who is going to a government office can get that in a timely fashion, can be in and out of there with, you know, with less pain of waiting for hours, and get whatever they need done in that time period. Understanding what paper they need, what needs to be completed ahead of time, so that they're in and out. But, you know, I also think that 74 years young is not too late to learn anything. I'm on the phone with my mother constantly helping her, myself, get up to date. And she now runs a "how to" training for her friends and her "Young at Heart" group. So, I, you know, happy to help anyone else, so.

Jim Love
Yeah. Go for it. You know, it's not, it's not as it's not as difficult as it seems. And we blame ourselves. I think this we blame ourselves because we, sometimes the things that are built are not that accessible for people. And I think that's a good—Minister, I see you nodding. Did you want to comment on that?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
No, actually, I was just saying, Victoria said it so well. Even my own parents, they're, they're using their cell phones now to get services online. And, you know, my mom, she loves her Amazon account, because she keeps, like—you know, it's easy. But I just want to say one thing here. As a government, for us is, yes, digital first, but not digital only. Because we want to make sure that, as I said earlier, like my parents, you know, they still like to go and get services in person at times. We want them to continue to have those services. But if somebody would like to get their services online, well, guess what? Now, you have the device to get it done. So, it's, we are trying to keep a balance. But again, going back to the thing, digital first, but not digital only.

Jim Love
Great question, again, from the audience in here—and I think that this is proof that I don't draft all the good questions. What are your views on digital equity? Now—and it goes on to say we face serious barriers that go beyond access: skills, bullying trust. How can Ontario support digital equity as we modernize services? Can I throw that first to you, Minister?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Yeah, no, sure. Absolutely. We need to make sure that Ontarians have access to digital services. And that's our goal. That's why, as a government, we are tremendously making some serious investments to make sure that, you know, Ontarians are able to get the services that they deserve as Ontarians. And Premier Ford has been very clear. He wants to make sure that Ontarians are able to get these services. And like, services should be available for everyone. Not just a handful of individuals, but for everyone. And that's what that's what we want to do.

Jim Love
Okay. Craig—oh, yep, Victoria, jump in, please.

Victoria Abeling
I apologize.

Jim Love
Oh no, no, don't.

Victoria Abeling
One thing I did want to point out and reinforce is that another call out from the survey was, you know, when I think about digital equity, and I think about the fact that multi-language and having support for all languages is going to be a big call out for the, for the government as well.

Jim Love
Yeah, making that available and multilingual systems are certainly—I think that's also one of the best ways that people can approach the government services if they're, if they're not, if English is not their first language in there.

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Jim, if I could just jump in quickly.

Jim Love
Absolutely, sir.

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
And by the way, I'm really enjoying this conversation. I thank you so much for putting this panel together. We are actually—and to your point, what Victoria just said, we want Ontarians, because as Victoria has said previously, we are such a multicultural society. So, we would like Ontario, every Ontarian to have access. And that's why we are investing heavily on broadband as well, too. Bringing broadband into communities where there is no internet services at times, so that it's equal for everyone. And then everyone can get the same level of services they deserve.

Jim Love
Absolutely. Craig, any comments on that, on this whole idea of digital equity and inclusion?

Craig McLellan
Yeah, a couple quick things. Yeah, I think, as a representative of the private sector that works with the public sector, I think there's opportunities for all of us to seriously consider the user experience across a multitude of systems to make systems easier to use. To make them more logical, make them, make sure that they adhere to accessibility regulations that are now in place. Just, just simple adherence. And I realize simple is not simple. But focusing on it, adhering to what you can adhere to, ultimately rises a tide that floats all boats, so that an experience working with an insurance company online translates into being able to work better with something from the public sector where I'm trying to renew something. Just the experience. It's a comfort level. It's trust, but it's also trust in yourself to say, I trust myself enough to be confident that I can use the system, because the user experience isn't confusing to me. And we, in general, I think a lot of the time, push aside the user experience for haste, because we really want to get something online. And in the process, we end up with some less-than-stellar user experiences.

Jim Love
Yeah, and if I can put into just a bit of a commercial for businesses in Ontario, especially. There's a lot of smart people out there in smaller tech businesses and medium-sized tech businesses, not always, the giants. Giants are great, but there's a lot of people out there who can who make really great contributions to accessibility and making services better. We've got a great, a great digital mindset in this province, which is great for them, for all of us in there. Just leaping out into that, just we wrap up, I'd like to just get each of you to share what your vision is of a future online citizen experience. We've talked about where we've been, we've talked about the necessity for security, we've talked about the things we have done. What's the vision that you would share? What in this—and I'm gonna start with you, Victoria—and just say, you've, coming out of this survey that you've done. It's taken on a lot of data and a lot of aspirations, a lot of requests from people, and a lot of thought in it. What vision did you come up, with leaping off that report into what the future should be?

Victoria Abeling
So, if you think about it, you know, there's so many channels now. We're almost all, you know, it's multi-channels. You think about digital online, virtual experiences. I think that when you think about what the end result would be, what the outcome is, is an ability and availability for anyone who has a need to engage with the government on specific services—whether it's healthcare, digital ID, renewing a licence, registering for even marriage licence, anything like that—is done in a way that allows them to consume that the way they want to consume; whether that is through a push of a button on an app, whether that's walking into an office that is, you know, that allows them to, you know, consume in that way. But if you think about where a lot of apps are going, it's also around one app to do all of that. And if it's an application online, if it's, you know, something on your phone, I see where we're going is, you know, in that way. I think about when I travel, personally, how easy it is for me now. I have clear, you know, they scan my eyes. I feel one hundred percent confident that they knew who I am. I don't—sometimes I've forgotten my ID and been lucky because I have clear. And I think about how we're going to that, you know, into that world. In cybersecurity, we talk a lot about what the future looks like. What would a fingerprint look like? What if we were, what if you had, you know, sensors in places that weren't just on your endpoint? And where are those endpoints, right? So, it is something top of mind. And, you know, I constantly think about what that, you know, what that future world would look like. And then just, you know, kind of circle it back to what the survey said, and what the Ontarians are asking for. It is one app for government services. So, you kind of tie all that back together and you've got, you know, multi-channel availability of the services for your, for your people, for your neighbours, your businesses, your customers.

Jim Love
Yeah, thank you. Craig, I mean, give me two minutes, and then we're gonna turn it over to the Minister for his remarks. And he can wrap up on this topic, or just go into to his own remarks, if he likes, at this point. Craig, what's the vision of the future for online services?

Craig McLellan
A couple of quick thoughts here. So, first of all, if you deal, when you deal with multiple levels of public sector, you realize that the data that we're talking about exists in different forms in different places. And my vision, if I had a blank sheet of paper—which I realize is somewhat silly to even suggest—is to look at data holistically at all levels of the public sector, so that organizations can actually collaborate and have similar, if not identical, policies with respect to how we protect data. So, for instance, data that's considered protected at the federal level doesn't have a consistent standard at the provincial level, yet it's the exact same piece of data. We need to see collaboration across those levels of government, because, ultimately, once the data is out, it's out. You can't get it back in the bottle, so to speak. So, that's, that's one area that I think is very important.

The second area, vision, from my perspective is, if we're calling it citizen government and citizen access, then I don't know whether, how much, I don't know how much citizens are involved in the input around prioritization or not. But it seems to me there's opportunities for citizens to actually, we'll say, vote, share feedback on what is important to them. Not only for their own use, but also for the, you know, the broader public sector in general, taking into account some of the accessibility and more marginalized groups, and what we can do to help, you know, to help them be part of the discussion. So, those are my two areas where I see opportunity.

Jim Love
Great. And I'm going to thank the panel. Craig McLellan, CEO and founder ThinkOn. Craig, we've met before. Thank you. Great to meet you again.

Craig McLellan
Great to be here.

Jim Love
And we have Victoria Abeling—sorry, thanks, Craig. And Victoria Abeling, in from VMware, Carbon Black—I never know which one I'm talking about, but I think they're both...

Victoria Abeling
They're both the same.

Jim Love
...they're both the same. Yeah. Okay. So, Victoria, thank you so much in there, hope you've enjoyed this.

Victoria Abeling
Thank you.

Jim Love
And I'm gonna turn it over to our special guest, the Honourable Kaleed Rasheed, Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery for the government of Ontario to make a few closing remarks in there. Minister?

The Hon. Kaleed Rasheed
Now, first of all, thank you, Jim. I really appreciate you having me here and being part of such a wonderful panel. Both Victoria and Craig, thank you so much for all the great work you are doing, and thank you for your input. And, Craig, to your point, absolutely. One of the things that I focus on with my team is always, whenever we are launching any product or services, that we go out in the market and get feedback. Because that's the most important thing. We want to hear from Ontarians as to what they are looking for from their government when it comes to digital government. And that's why, this year, when we formed government and the new cabinet was announced—as most of you may know, I was actually Ontario's first ever Associate Minister of Digital Government—and at that time, it showed Ontarians that this premier was very serious about providing services to Ontarians and businesses using technology. And then when I became the Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery, we continue to have a digital government inside this ministry. Because I believe that both public, and business, and digital government, works hand in hand, and we need to, we need to continue the collaboration.

And, and honestly, rebuilding Ontario's economy and unlocking its full potential are the key priorities of our government. And improving the way government serves the public and businesses is so crucial to building a modern province—the province we all love. And we are doing, honestly—so by providing easy-to-use online services with quicker delivery than ever, and that's the most important thing. You know, when you have a premiere—or as I say, the boss—who is a champion of customer service and service delivery, you want to make sure that you are able to do live up to his expectations. And that is exactly what we are doing, providing the best service or customer service possible to Ontarians. And, and what we have discussed today, or what I've outlined, is a big leap forward for the future generations of people and businesses in Ontario. And as Victoria said, why can we not do everything by, you know, from a device, and having just one app? We need to do—we need to take bold steps. It's like, now or never. So, you know—and honestly, I look forward to working with our partners, such as yourselves, to make inclusion, accessibility we talked about, and a robust suite of digital options that the default settings in interacting with government. And like, honestly? We are just getting started. So, so thank you so much again for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with you all today. And thank you once again for joining Premier Ford and I on this incredible journey.

Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
Thank you. Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Jim. And thanks again to our sponsors, Insight, Bruce Power, and Hydro One. Thank you to VMware for your collaboration on this event, our panellists, and everyone joining us today. As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on demand on our website. A recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an email with the link.

On Tuesday December the 13th to join us in person for a highly anticipated address and conversation titled, "Opportunities and Challenges in the Era of the Polycrisis," with special guests Mr. Achim Steiner, Administrator of the United Nations Development Program. We will review some of the setbacks and achievements of 2022 and discuss the status of the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development Goals. On Wednesday, December the 14th, join us in conversation with Ontario Minister Pirie, Minister of Mines, Chief Wabasse, Michael Fox, on how the province, the First Nation, and the private sector are working together to make the Ring of Fire a reality, protect the environment, enable further regional partnerships, and First Nations self determination. Thanks again for joining us today. This meeting is now adjourned.