Canada and the United Kingdom in a Troubled World

June 5, 2023

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Canada and the United Kingdom in a Troubled World

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Omar Sachedina, Chief News Anchor and Senior Editor, CTV National News

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Ben Almond, CEO, SNC Lavalin
The Honourable Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Permanent Representative to the International Maritime Organization


Head Table Guests
Ann Curran, Past President, President, Empire Club of Canada, Curran Corporate Advisors Inc.
Joanne Freeman, Country Director Canada, Department for Business and Trade, Government of the UK
Kim Furlong, CEO, Canadian Venture Capital & Private Equity Association
José García, Country Manager, AXA Partners Canada
Peter Groccia, President & CEO, Precise ParkLink
James Kempston, CEO, NP Aerospace
Arthur Kong, Board Director, Director, Project Development, Empire Club of Canada, NGen
Gerard Power, Founder & CEO, Tre Amici Wines
Sal Rabbani, President of the Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon. Welcome to the 119th season of the Empire Club of Canada. To our in-person attendees joining us at the Arcadian Court in Toronto, I'm delighted to be here with you today. And our virtual audience joining in live or on-demand, thank you for your participation and support. Our role at the Empire Club is to inspire thought leadership and learning. As a trusted forum for conversations that matter, we provide a platform for the professionals of our community to profile their expertise. We hope to spark meaningful connections and productive dialogue by giving you, our incredible colleagues and peers, access to this nation's diverse wealth of knowledge. Welcome. My name is Sal Rabbani, and I'm the President of the Board of Directors of the Empire Club of Canada. And I'm also, in my day job, pretty much focused on supporting Canadian entrepreneurs.

To formally begin this afternoon, I want to acknowledge that we are gathering today on the traditional and treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wyandot Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the traditional territory on which you work and live.

Turning to today's program, I want to recognize the Empire Club’s distinguished past presidents, board of directors, staff, and volunteers. Thank you for your contributions to making this event a success. Today, we are welcoming the Honorable Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Permanent Representative of Canada's International Maritime Organization. Over the next hour or so, we will have the unique opportunity to learn more about what it means to be a High Commissioner, about Canada-UK trade, possibly foreign interference, the Crown, and the coronation of King Charles III.

Today's conversation is more than timely, against a backdrop of complex and precarious global conditions: the aftermath of COVID, the war in Ukraine, inflation, rising interest rates, labour shortage, stand Canada and the UK, two countries with a strong bond. We share culture, history, and language, we're both members of the Commonwealth, the G7 and the G20. The UK is Canada's third-largest trading partner. There's close to 4000 Canadian companies who export to the UK, and more than ninety percent of those are small and medium-sized businesses—and I'm pleased to welcome many of you in the room here today.

Each country with its respective share of challenges at home, Canada and the UK also compete on the global stage. We compete for investments, and for growth. Yet for two countries that have so much in common, we are in a way better position to succeed if we work together. There are many examples that I could easily spend a few hours just naming all the partnerships we have, or that we're in the midst of negotiating, you know, as it relates to trade, defence, security, and so on. Instead, I want to highlight two areas that I believe to be of great significance: technology and climate change. Our countries have a memorandum of understanding on science, technology, and innovation. This helps accelerate collaboration and commercialization in sectors such as Agri-Tech, advanced manufacturing, smart grids, AI, and quantum technologies. Technology and innovation are the future, and it's important for our countries to focus their energy on this.

Secondly, the Canada-UK Partnership on Clean Growth and Climate Change commits us both to doing more and better together, to fight climate change. If we want to have a future at all, collaborating on advancing climate action is paramount. Our countries are stronger and more impactful when we work together. Our partnership creates stability and mutual prosperity. I look forward to today's conversation. It's a unique opportunity to better understand how to continue to further positive relationships. And by working together, we can be more competitive, continue to create a win-win relationship for Canada and the UK, and ultimately, position our countries to better succeed on the global stage.

The Empire Club of Canada is a not-for-profit organization, and I'd like to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the club and make these events possible and complementary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our lead event sponsor, SNC Lavalin; thank you to our supporting sponsor, Bombardier; thank you also to our season sponsors, Bruce Power, Hydro One and TELUS.

For those of you joining us online, if you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen—we're accepting questions from the audience for our speakers—and for those of you in the room, you can undertake to scan that QR code found on your program booklet, and online through that Q&A under the video player. It's now my pleasure to invite Ben Almond, Chief Executive Officer at SNC Lavalin, to introduce our guest speakers. Ben, welcome.

Opening Remarks by Ben Almond, CEO, SNC Lavalin
Thanks, Sal. High Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, and esteemed guests. It's a pleasure to be here today. As Sal said, my name is Ben Almond. I'm SNC Lavalin's Chief Executive Officer for Engineering Services here in Canada. And I'd like to begin by thanking the Empire Club for bringing us together today. We have a very positive and productive history of partnership and collaboration. It's wonderful that the Empire Club has become a leading forum on issues of importance to Canadians, offering opportunities for different voices and perspectives to be heard for over 119 years. So, thank you again.

Canada's relationship with the United Kingdom is one underpinned by historical ties and shared values. A system of democratic governance, the promotion of free and fair international trade and investment, a commitment to the freedom of speech, human rights, and international development, and to addressing some of the most pressing global challenges of our time, including climate change, and geopolitical and international security challenges around the world. Our bond and long history of strategic partnership are a testament to the enduring power of friendship and collaboration that resonates far beyond our own borders. As we look toward a future marked by continued innovation, technical advancements, and economic progress, SNC Lavalin is very much committed to playing an important role in the storied Canada-UK relationship.

As a fully integrated professional services and project management company with offices around the world, our company has found success both at home in Canada and abroad, by contributing to complex and iconic projects. We now have over 35,000 employees in over 60 countries, with three core geographies in Canada, the UK, and the US. In the UK, we're known as Atkins, one of the world's most respected design, engineering, and project management consultancies, that was acquired by SNC Lavalin in 2017. We have 12,000 employees working in more than 40 locations across the UK, and we're one of the UK's largest engineering consultancies at the forefront of digital innovation and delivering some of the biggest and complex projects across the region. Wherever we work, here at home in Canada or in the United Kingdom, we will continue to focus on contributing to great projects grounded in our purpose, and that's to engineer a better future for our planet and its people.

From that purpose stems our laser focus to help achieve the global community’s 2050 net-zero targets, and the well-engineered and prosperous communities of tomorrow. Although we believe that everyone has a role to play in creating net-zero communities of tomorrow, Atkins and SNC Lavalin have taken a leadership role in this area. We want to be at the forefront of this work. We're going to do this in part by connecting people, data, and technology. We'll also achieve this by having our own targets; a road map, in fact, that helps us reach net-zero by 2030. But more importantly, we've developed a detailed blueprint, a framework, that we take with us to all of our projects, and we've called it Engineering Net-Zero, because we think we can be the most impactful with our clients. This is where we make a real difference. We want to be a partner of choice for clients looking to decarbonize their operations, to build climate resiliency, and to reduce climate risk. And so far, we've had success. We've had the privilege of helping several governments around the world rethink how engineering has traditionally been done. And this paradigm shift in thinking from governments, and all of our other clients, will over time minimize the impact on the planet, and help us build a better world for future generations.

Without further delay, it's my honour to introduce our keynote speaker for today, the Honorable Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Permanent Representative of Canada's International Maritime Organization. The High Commissioner assumed his responsibilities in April 2021. His service to Canada, however, spans many years, and he's gained practical experience in business, law, agriculture, and broadcasting, as well as federal and provincial politics. A former minister across several senior federal government portfolios, he's perfectly placed to represent Canadians and Canadian interests abroad, to be the uniquely Canadian voice and representative in a world that faces no shortage of global challenges and demands, and one that increasingly must leverage diplomatic relationships and international agreements for the greater global good.

Raised on a family farm near Wilcox, Saskatchewan, the High Commissioner received a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Virginia and a Bachelor of Law degree from the University of Saskatchewan. He was first elected to the Parliament of Canada in 1974 at the age of 24, representing Saskatchewan’s sprawling rural riding of Assiniboia. In the ‘80s, he served as leader of the Provincial Liberal Party, and was elected to the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan in 1986. He returned to the House of Commons in 1993 as a Member of Parliament for Wascana, and was subsequently re-elected seven consecutive times, becoming Regina's longest-serving MP. A member of the federal cabinet under three prime ministers, he was appointed Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food from ‘93 to ‘97, Minister of Natural Resources from ‘97 to 2002, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons in 2002, he was Minister of Public Works and Government Services from 2002 to 2003, Minister of Finance from 2003 to 2006, and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness from 2015 to 2019.

In March of 2020, the High Commissioner became a Special Adviser to the Prime Minister for Canada's response to Iran’s shooting down of Ukraine International Airlines Flight PS752, which claimed the lives of 55 Canadian citizens, 30 permanent residents of Canada, and dozens of others with Canadian links. This role is ongoing in the pursuit of transparency, accountability, and justice for the families of those victims. Please join me in welcoming the Honourable Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Permanent Representative of Canada's International Maritime organization. Sir.

The Honourable Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Permanent Representative to the International Maritime Organization
Mr. Almond, thank you very much for your generous introduction. Mr. Rabbani, ladies and gentlemen, it is a great pleasure to be back before the Empire Club once again, to tell you a little bit this time about my role as Canada's High Commissioner in the United Kingdom—and it's a pleasure to see so many familiar faces in the crowd today. To be High Commissioner in the United Kingdom is a terrific assignment, partly because London and the UK are simply wonderful places to be. There's history, and culture, and something fascinating—or completely outrageous—on every street corner. On top of that, London is a major global intersection for international politics, economics, diplomacy, and intrigue, on a great many different levels. The whole world passes through London every month or so. And we are living through an era of extraordinary events: Platinum Jubilee, a state funeral, a coronation—those things don't happen every day—lots of turbulence in British domestic politics, the ongoing Brexit saga, trade negotiations, COVID and its aftermath, a tragic war in Europe, the reemergence of big power rivalries in the world once again, and coming soon, the British general election. So, it's a lively time. To top it off, this assignment is terrific, too, because the relationship between the UK and Canada is long, and deep, it's candid, it's proactive, and it's productive. In times of profound international turmoil and change, there is a risk that we might undervalue a familiar asset like that Canada-UK partnership. It works well. It might get taken for granted, but it has great potential to work even better. The Canada-UK relationship must be positioned as a key part of Canada's tomorrow, as well as being a cornerstone of our past.

To provide some context, our High Commission in the United Kingdom is Canada's oldest diplomatic mission abroad. We've had representation in London since 1869. With about 300 employees, this is one of Canada's largest foreign posts, along with Washington and Delhi. Perched conspicuously on Trafalgar Square since 1925, Canada House, as everybody calls it, is the most visible embassy in all of the United Kingdom. Physically, Canada is 45 times bigger than the UK, with about half of the population. You could fit all of the United Kingdom within the four corners of my home province of Saskatchewan. In that space, Saskatchewan has one million people; the UK has nearly seventy million people. So, density is one big distinction between our two countries. We are both wealthy G7 nations, with GDP at 3.1 trillion US dollars, Britain is the sixth largest economy in the World; Canada is number nine, with GDP at 2.1 trillion dollars. On an individual basis, Canada's GDP per capita is better than the Brits by about six percents; we have just above 58,000 US dollars per person, and they are just below 55,000 dollars.

The cost of living is a concern in both of our countries. Inflation in Canada at the last report was running at 4.4 percent, that is down sharply from its peak of more than eight percent about a year ago. In the UK, inflation had been stuck stubbornly at more than ten percent, but their most recent figures show the British CPI is now down to 8.7 percent. Energy costs have moderated, and that makes up part of that decline, but food cost inflation in the UK is still running pretty close to 20 percent per year. The Central Bank rate in both of our countries is four-and-a-half percent. The credit rating of the Government of Canada is pretty consistently at AAA, for the UK Government, it's closer to AA. The overall economic relationship between Canada and the United Kingdom is valued at more than 410 billion dollars. Two-way trade in goods and services totals about 42 billion dollars annually, making the UK our third-largest trading partner after the US and China. At the moment, we're running a trade surplus on goods, and a small deficit on surpluses.

The investment side of things is even more impressive. Britain is Canada's second largest source of foreign direct investment, and our second-largest destination. Including both FDI and portfolio investments brought together, British ownership in Canada now totals more than 160 billion dollars, while Canadian investments in the UK exceed 209 billion dollars. A key player in much of that is Canada's major pension funds. Their investments currently in the UK are worth about 120 billion dollars. While not the only form of Canadian ownership in Britain, our unique Canadian pension fund model for large-scale, long-term, high-quality investments, is a very significant factor in Canada's overall economic impact in the United Kingdom. In return, the British investment market is a source of stability and reliability for the retirement incomes of millions of Canadians. Most Britons are likely unaware that Canada is a big owner of British assets, driving economic activity, and creating jobs in railways, ports, airports, public utilities of all kinds, the production, transmission, and distribution of energy—both conventional and renewables—innovation and technology platforms, student housing, childcare, commercial real estate, and much more, ranging all the way from nuclear fusion on one side, to the British National Lottery on the other.

Even more important, Canada and the United Kingdom share hundreds of years of history and heritage, including the same monarch, similar governmental, legal and commercial systems, strong military traditions, robust cultural and academic ties, too many family linkages to even begin to count, and above all, a deep reservoir of respect and trust, based on our common lived experience, and on values that we have promoted and defended together, and for which we both have always been prepared to sacrifice to safeguard our way of life.

That tight relationship between Canada and the UK is probably more important now than it has ever been, for two interrelated reasons. First, autocratic, and often violent regimes are in the ascendancy around the world today. Democracy is more of a minority and at greater risk today than ever before in our lifetime. In large portions of the so-called Global South, a combination of audacious diplomacy, disinformation, economic coercion, big dollars—and the debt that follows those dollars—all poured in by China and Russia, has inflated the influence of those two countries, while diminishing ours.

And secondly, the leading bulwark for democracy in the world, namely the United States, has been riven recently by populism and extremism, polarization, and foreign interference, such that America may potentially be less willing or less available to play the familiar, reliable role in global affairs that we have come to know and depend on for the past 80 years. Others are asserting claims of power and leadership, and they have much different values and ambitions.

All of that makes Canada's connections with the United Kingdom that much more vital as family allies, partners, and friends. The importance of our work together has been especially evident since February of 2022, when Putin illegally re-invaded Ukraine, and relaunched his brutal war of imperial aggression. Putin's war is crudely punctuated by war crimes, crimes against humanity, sexual violence, torture, kidnapping, the terrorizing of children, the wanton destruction of homes, and schools, and hospitals, and civilian infrastructure, and innocent bodies dumped in mass graves. Putin holds the poor and the elderly to ransom all across Europe with high energy costs, and hungry people in the most fragile countries are threatened by Putin with even greater starvation. Most countries in the world, more than 140 members of the United Nations, have voted consistently over this past year to condemn Putin's vile behavior. Only a tiny handful of the most disreputable regimes actually support Russia; but more than 40 countries abstain or fail to show up when a vote is called, including about a dozen from the Commonwealth. Putin's insidious influence is deeply disturbing.

Isolated and delusional, Putin claimed he would be welcomed as a liberator in Ukraine. He thought he would conquer all resistance within a matter of days. He expected the free world to be divided, and easily wilt. He was wrong on every count. Fifteen months later, freedom-loving people everywhere have never been more united to help defend the sovereignty of Ukraine, and their sovereign right not to be attacked and to live in peace. Were United, also, to defend the integrity of international institutions, the sanctity of human rights, the viability of the rule of law, and a rules-based system of decent international behavior.

That Putin was surprised at the strength of character in the Ukrainian people is a measure of his ignorance of who they are. Canadians know who they are. Ukrainians have been emigrating to Canada for more than 130 years. They’re nation-builders. Today, more than 1.4 million Canadians, close to four percent of our national population, trace their family heritage to Ukraine. We have the second-largest Ukrainian diaspora in the world. We stand in awe, but we are not surprised at the strength and skill, the determination and resilience, the tenacity, the courage, and the valor of the Ukrainian people. Their thirst for freedom is legendary, their quest for independence and self-determination is unquenchable, their culture and identity are distinctive, and priceless, and real. So yes, Ukrainians will fight for all of that for as long as it takes. And as they do so, they are the global frontline for democracy worldwide. The free world must stand with them, as the G7 reaffirmed unequivocally in Hiroshima just last month.

The United Kingdom and Canada have been standing with Ukraine from the very beginning. In fact, for several years before Putin's war, we were actively training the Ukrainian defence forces at bases in Ukraine. And now, that vital training is continuing at bases in the UK, as well as in Poland and Latvia. This is practical, high-value support, that makes a very real difference on the ground. Ukrainian forces have been impressively effective on the battlefield, and professional training by Canadians, the British, and others, is part of the reason why. Like the UK, Canada is also providing military equipment and supplies, transport, logistics, intelligence, economic support, loan guarantees, humanitarian aid, and technical assistance. Since the beginning of last year, all of that adds up now to more than eight billion dollars in Canadian support so far. We've also received more than a million refugee applications, and we've processed over 700,000 so far. And coordinating closely with the UK, we've applied extensive sanctions—and other more creative penalties—to render Putin as much of an outcast as possible.

With Putin bludgeoning Ukraine, with tensions rising in the Indo-Pacific around China’s ambitions, and with risks and threats in other places in a dangerous world, Canada and the UK are carefully examining how best to broaden and deepen our already extensive security, intelligence, and defence collaboration. As one example, Canada is creating a special unit in our Global Affairs Department, to better detect and combat Russian disinformation, which operates at a massive scale around the world. And we are embedding Canadian talent in the counterpart disinformation unit within the British government. Other areas of mutual interest include foreign interference, economic security, reliable supply chains, critical minerals, cybersecurity, and other fields of advanced technology, more robust connections with the Global South, and marshalling resources for Ukraine's ultimate reconstruction.

Let me move on briefly to two other topics that have been prominent on the Canada-UK agenda these past two years. One is trade, and the other is the arrival of a new monarch. One of my first official visitors at Canada House in the spring of 2021 was Liz Truss. She later became Prime Minister, but she was then acting in her capacity as the UK Minister of International Trade. She was launching her public consultations on the proposed negotiation of the first ever standalone bilateral Canada-UK Free Trade Agreement. Both countries were keen to proceed. We finished all the legal and parliamentary preliminaries over the following few months, and formal negotiations began in March of 2020. Five rounds have now been concluded; number six will take place this month in Ottawa; round seven is set for London in September. Both sides report good progress and ongoing optimism. The talks are scheduled to conclude by next spring. We're both aiming for an ambitious outcome that will promote successful trade diversification for the UK—that means diversification beyond the EU, and for Canada, obviously, beyond the US. We also want to work effectively together to protect ourselves against the trade-distorting consequences of foreign measures like the massive US Inflation Reduction Act. We want to advance gender equality, diversity, and Indigenous reconciliation. We want to promote high labour standards and environmental integrity, because both of our economies are largely built around small and medium-sized businesses. We want this agreement to help more and more of them to export and trade, because when they do, they become more competitive, more innovative, more profitable, and they pay higher wages. We want to advance the digital economy, which has become such a pervasive part of our lives since the pandemic. We want to promote science, research, technology, and creative brainpower partnerships, which allow us to pool our skills and our talents, and then take on the world together, in such fields as advanced manufacturing, protein, food, and the life sciences, the aerospace and automotive sectors, AI, quantum clean energy, and climate change.

There will always be trade challenges to overcome, and typically, agriculture and the interests of farmers are among the most difficult issues to resolve on both sides of the Atlantic. We certainly saw that in the multilateral discussions about the UK application to join the CPTPP, the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership. That deal, which was struck a few years ago, brought 11 countries with Pacific interests together as trading partners, with particularly high standards, including Canada. The pact was designed to be open for others to join, providing they meet the required thresholds and make the same commitments as the original 11. The United Kingdom was the first country to apply to get in, and from the beginning, Canada was the first CPTPP member to be supportive of the UK application. But it was not a superficial exercise; the scrutiny was intense. In the end, the CPTPP will be stronger with the addition of another G7 economy. Canada and Japan are already there, the UK will make three. Once the UK is fully included, the CPTPP will cover 16 percent of global GDP, and 600 million consumers.

But that's not to say everyone is happy. Canadian cattle producers are concerned about the UK's intention to continue its ban against any beef imports that are treated with hormones, which is a common practice all across North America. In both Canada and the US, Canadian producers are also unhappy with some criticism from some British commentators, suggesting that Canadian food safety and health of animals systems are inferior. Let's be crystal clear about that. Canada has an excellent food system. It compares favorably with the very best on Earth, and it's certainly every bit as good as the British one. Our satisfied customers include some of the most sophisticated and demanding buyers in the world. Indeed, the only major health-of-animals issue in recent memory in Canada dates back some 30 years, to when a case of BSE was imported, ironically, from the United Kingdom. That fiasco cost Canadian producers billions. So, we are totally attuned to quality and safety issues and the top of the line in animal husbandry.

The basic point is this: the rules of the CPTPP require that any border measure that restricts imports must be rooted in sound scientific analysis. The original 11 members agreed to that, and it applies to all new members, too. The UK asserts vigorously that it is willing and able to meet all CPTPP thresholds. They must be held to that commitment to sound science, just as all the rest of us are, too. And let me suggest, to advance transatlantic knowledge, understanding, and trust on these issues, it would be helpful to have an in-depth ongoing dialogue among our respective agricultural producers, food processors, government regulators, and our scientific communities, to ensure that we know each other well, we communicate effectively, and we operate constructively from the same solid, factual foundation.

Finally, I just want to say a brief word about His Majesty King Charles, the new King of Canada. About a year ago now, we were all celebrating the happy and glorious Platinum Jubilee of Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth. Then last September, we said a sad farewell to our longest-serving monarch with a spectacular state funeral. Her eldest son, the Prince of Wales, acceded to the throne immediately, but the formal coronation for King Charles took place just last month. No one does ceremony quite as well as the British, and they were at their royal best this past year. In terms of logistics and security, London has not seen anything quite like it since World War Two. Of course, you hear questions raised now about the future of the monarchy, and that's only natural. Queen Elizabeth was the only sovereign that most of us have ever known. When that much-admired persona leaves the stage and a successor takes over, people will naturally have questions about where to from here.

I hope that we take this opportunity to study the effective nature of our democratic constitutional monarchy as a successful form of government compared to all the others. There is significant value in our system which distinguishes Head of State from Head of Government. Head of Government is where all the political wrangling happens, as it should; Head of State is set apart from that, to embody the values and principles that unite us, to provide cohesion, stability, and continuity above the fray. When the Head of State and Head of Government are combined in one, too often, political problems morph into constitutional problems, which become hugely debilitating, as we've seen in some other countries. By comparison, our system has actually functioned rather well.

In addition, there are three practical matters to consider. First, there is no consensus yet on change to what. You cannot argue for something different without defining precisely what that difference is. Second, you can never open the Constitution to adjust just one little thing. You will be launching an open-ended constitutional rethink that you can expect to be rather long and distracting. And third, this type of amendment requires unanimous agreement among the Senate, the House of Commons, and all the provinces, and the likelihood of that is a bit problematic.

King Charles is focused on things that matter to many Canadians, promoting strong communities in which people volunteer to serve others, securing a clean environment which supports a prosperous economy, providing young people with the skills and opportunities to thrive, and advancing reconciliation and healing with Indigenous Peoples. As Prince of Wales, he has already made more than 18 official visits to Canada, into every corner of the country. And on issues like reconciliation, he's no newcomer. He was traveling to Indigenous communities and listening to Indigenous leaders and elders long before just about everybody else. And 48 hours before his coronation, he met personally with the elected leadership of Indigenous organizations from Canada. First time, something like that has ever happened. And it just may be that King Charles, with his Indigenous Vice-Regal Representative in Canada Governor General Mary Simon, it just may be that they together can affect the course of our history and our future for the better, for Indigenous people and non-Indigenous people alike. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your very patient attention, and I look forward to having your questions. Thanks very much.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you. I would now like to welcome distinguished journalist Omar Sachedina, Chief News Anchor and Senior Editor, CTV National News, to moderate the discussion. And I welcome you back to the podium.

Omar Sachedina, Chief News Anchor and Senior Editor, CTV National News
Thank you, Sir. High Commissioner, thank you so much. It's really great to be here with all of you, today, this afternoon, or I should say—well, it is afternoon now. Our....

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
It’s evening in London.

Omar Sachedina
It is evening, and you're fighting jet lag. Our paths have crossed over the years. I've known you for quite some time, and I've known you as somebody who's pursued his work with passion, with alacrity, with fervor, and also, humility. And just to give you all an example of that, we were backstage, and I asked the High Commissioner, I said, “High Commissioner, what do I call you? Your Excellency, High Commissioner?” And he said, “Omar, just call me Ralph.” I said, “I can't call you Ralph in front of all these people.” So, I think we've settled on Mr. Goodale. So, Mr. Goodale, good to see you.

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
You good to see you, Mr. Sachedina.

Omar Sachedina
Call me Omar, call me Omar. I wanna touch on a topic that has consumed headlines for the past few weeks here in Canada, and that is the issue of foreign interference. And I want to start with that because we know that the UK is part of the Five Eyes Intelligence Committee, and we also know that part of your role in the past was as Public Safety Minister. And I'm wondering, as you know, I'm sure you've had a chance to look at the interim report by former Governor General David Johnston. You've been watching closely the political fallout in this country. What's been going through your mind as you've been observing and taking notice of this?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
Well, one of the things over the last two years that I've tried hard to learn is that as a fledgling Ambassador or High Commissioner, you need to understand the line between politics and diplomacy. So, you'll appreciate that I'll be very careful in answering that question so that I stay on the diplomatic side of the line. And you're right, I've watched these things from a distance from London, but I think I can make probably three observations.

Number one, through what I've always heard from and about the Right Honourable David Johnston, the record is consistent with his commitment to honourable behavior, service to the country, and integrity in all of the things that he does. That seems to me to be the record of his life story. That's very much on the on the public record, including when he was serving in several different capacities, up to and including Governor General during the time of Mr. Harper's government.

Secondly, as all of the turmoil and debate seems to focus on Mr. Johnston, we should not lose sight of the fact that foreign interference is a serious and growing international concern. And it's not just one country that's involved in this; there are a number. And it doesn't just affect Canada; it affects every country in the Five Eyes and every country in the G7. And we are all deeply concerned about this. And we need a very strong, very tight international effort to combat it, because it goes to the root and the strength of our Western democracy. So, while there will be political debates in every one of those countries about different dimensions of the problem, we all have a common international interest in finding the right way to combat this insidious problem, because it affects us all.

Omar Sachedina
And so, what is the right way? I mean, you know, the gaps, some of the gaps in intelligence sharing are long-standing.

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
The issue, in part, is how do you deal in a public way that responds to the public's demand to know and right to know. How do you deal with that in a circumstance where some of the information is intensely classified—and, by definition, cannot be shared. We need to find a mechanism that will provide the public a level of satisfaction that, in fact, they can rely upon what they are being told. We have some of the tools in place, like the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, and the National Security Review Agency, and the Intelligence Commissioner. All of those pieces were put into place when I had the honour of being the Public Safety Minister. They have been scrutinized, and debated, and passed by Parliament. So, some of the tools are there. But I think this experience around this debate is indicating that we need more focus on that key question. When the essential facts cannot be fully shared, because they're classified, then how do you give the public the absolute assurance that they can rely on what they are being told?

And those kinds of mechanisms in a free and democratic society are difficult to achieve, but we've got to achieve them for all of us. Not just Canada, but Canada, the UK—where Minister Tugendhat is busy working on these same issues—and the US, and France, and Australia, all of whom are affected by some dimension of this problem. We need to pull all those threads together and get, amongst other things, an international solution that gives us that collection, that collective action against foreign interference, and the insidious consequences of that.

Omar Sachedina
Are there other members of our Five Eyes Alliance—UK included—that do it better, from whom we can learn?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
You know, I think we're all wrestling with this, but—and nobody has a perfect solution yet. I mentioned Minister Tugendhat in the UK. He's leading, now, a UK task force that's focused on these very issues. Examining the UK system, examining ours and the others in the Five Eyes—and beyond the Five Eyes, other countries as well—and what we learned from each other. Nobody's got the perfect answer yet. We're all struggling with the same issues. We need to pool our brain power because we can all learn from each other.

Omar Sachedina
I want to move on to trade. And I noticed that you, you know, you paid a nod to the farmers. You are, of course, from Saskatchewan. It's a community you're intimately connected with, it is part of your roots. When you talk about the trade irritants between the UK and Canada, notwithstanding the long-standing relationship you also talked about. Aside from talking about the benefits of our food safety system and how you said it was a sound system, how, how else do you surmount that hurdle? Because it is a significant hurdle between the two countries. What more can be done actively?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
Well, I think the one practical suggestion I offered is where you begin. Let’s get our respective sectors talking to each other, because we gain nothing by beggaring our neighbour; we’re farther ahead working together. So, the farm organizations are actually making a stab at this, beginning in September of this year. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture is inviting counterparts from the United States, and from the UK, and from the EU, to come together for an international conversation about the issues they are facing in agricultural trade, and how they can better understand each other’s objectives and sensitivities.

To that, I think you need to add the regulators, the food processors, and the scientific community, so that they're all communicating in a consistent way, so we understand each other better, and we operate from the same factual foundation. That's a place to start; we'll see where the conversation goes from there. But it is good to see the farmers taking the initiative to have that first international conversation this September—I think it is in Prince Edward Island—on the broader issue of trade.

Omar Sachedina
Mr. Goodale, you know, we are living in a complicated world. As you alluded to in your speech, there are huge behemoths, such as China, who have become key players in the world. At the same time, Canada has had a tradition for standing up for human rights and issues that matter. There seems to be a clash at times between those two forces, economic prosperity, trade, and also, holding countries to account. For example, I believe it was just a few weeks ago, Canada rekindled its diplomatic relationship with Saudi Arabia after about five years. What do you think of the balance that Canada has struck by holding countries such as Saudi Arabia and China to account for their human rights, while at the same time carrying on with these economic talks and trade?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
It's always a very careful balancing act to make sure that you've got the priorities in the right order. And it's a work in progress at any given moment. And facts can change, events can change, and you've got to be able to adjust your foreign policy activity and your trade activity to respond to those realities. We do live in a big, complicated, difficult, and increasingly dangerous world, and we can't escape that reality. You can't escape the role that is played by those other countries. And you need to have the courage, all the time, to respond. The Indo-Pacific Policy that was published by Canada a number of months ago, together with the similar policy updates that you will have seen from the United States, and from the UK, and others, all make the point. There are places where, with China, we need to work hard to find ways to collaborate around climate change, for example, and some of the dimensions of that problem that simply cannot be solved unless China is a part of the solution. So, you want China in the tent and working and working with the team.

There will be areas where we will be in strong competition. For example, finding the ways to build climate-resilient infrastructure in the Global South, where so many of the island states are very vulnerable to the consequences of climate change. And building that infrastructure with Canadian expertise like the sponsors of this luncheon bring to the table is a very valuable and important thing to do. And there's an advantage doing it with that Canadian talent, as opposed to talent from elsewhere in the world.

And then there will be places where you just have to draw the line and say there cannot be collaboration, there cannot be competition. We will have to condemn the particular behavior that that affects human rights, for example. And discerning where you compete, where you collaborate, and where you condemn, and bringing that all together in a successful foreign policy mix is not easy. But it's the art of diplomacy.

Omar Sachedina
Speaking of the art of diplomacy, I mean, I just want to ask you a couple of last questions. You brought up the monarchy. And there have been conversations, as you mentioned in your speech, about the, you know, the role of the monarchy and its future here in in Canada. I certainly don't want to put you in the awkward spot of advising the monarch. But when you look at the polls and the support for the monarchy, even though people may not know what that b) is, what that alternative is...

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
Yep.

Omar Sachedina
...the support doesn't seem to be what it once was. Given that, what do you think the King now needs to do in order to extend that relationship, or sort of reaffirm that relationship with the Canadian people?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
You know, I—far be it for me to offer advice; that's not my role to the monarchy. But just observe his behaviour since he was thrust into this new role. The morning after Queen Elizabeth passed away, the King had been in Scotland and came back to London, and the motorcade pulled up in front of Buckingham Palace. And it could have just gone through the gate, and that would have been the end of it. But the King stopped the motorcade, got out, and spent the better part of an hour talking to people in front of Buckingham Palace, and sharing their grief, and his grief, about the loss of Queen Elizabeth. It was a very human thing to do, and a very public thing to do, and I think it indicates his instinct to reach out, to be in touch, to listen. That's not a new behavior on his part. As I said in my remarks, with respect to Indigenous people, he's been doing that for a very long time. And Indigenous people, in many respects, acknowledge and respect that. So, I think he's working at making the monarchy more open, more in touch with modern realities. I think he's working at an agenda of things, including the future for young people, and the healing process with respect to Indigenous people, that will be very relevant to social and economic and public policy in Canada. It's a work in progress. But I think he appreciates that he will have to be creative in reinventing this institution, in tune with the circumstances of the 21st century.

Omar Sachedina
And we do know that he met with leaders of the First Nations, Inuit, and Métis communities...

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
Yep.

Omar Sachedina
...before his coronation. And I believe I spoke to some of them during the time of the coronation; they said that they have another meeting scheduled before the end of the year. Do you see that as being, you know, a formalized set of meetings going forward?

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
We'll see where it goes forward. But it would very likely be the beginning of a process. What exactly that process will involve, I don't think anyone can predict right now, because it's never been tried before. The monarch has never sat down in a room with just him, the Governor General—who's also Indigenous—and the three nationally-elected Indigenous leaders from Canada. It's an absolute first. And it's the start of a dialogue, I know the Indigenous leaders are anxious to see it continue, I think the His Majesty is as well. And this may turn out to be one of the ways to steer Canada and Canadians productively toward greater solutions around reconciliation.

Omar Sachedina
Great. That was actually one of the audience questions we had, so thank you so much for that, fascinating discussion as always. And thanks for making the time, I know you have a busy agenda while you're here in Canada, but I've appreciated the chat. And thank you all for being here today. Mr. Goodale, Thank you.

The Hon. Ralph Goodale
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Omar Sachedina
Thank you, thank you.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you very much, Omar, for facilitating the conversation today. Thank you to the Honourable Ralph Goodale, and thanks again to SNC Lavalin and all our sponsors for their support, and everyone joining us today in person or online. As a club of record, All Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on our website on demand. The recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an e-mail with the link.

On Monday, June 12th, join us virtually to learn from Indigenous women who have achieved success in their careers, and explore ways to promote diversity and inclusion in the workplace. On Wednesday, June the 14th, join us virtually for a discussion that will shed light on the urgent need to address mental health and young adults, including racialized individuals, in the workplace. Finally, I'm thrilled to share that we're hosting the Premier of Ontario, Doug Ford. The Empire Club will deliver a speech on Monday, June the 19th at the Arcadian court. Registration will be available shortly, and we look forward to your attendance at our last in-person event of the season.

Thanks for joining us today. We invite you to join us in the lobby for continued networking. Have a great afternoon. This meeting is now adjourned.