Stories of a Caring and Sharing Canada

June 27, 2023

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Stories of a Caring and Sharing Canada

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Bob Ramsay, President, Ramsay Inc.

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Melissa Cotton, Senior Manager, Government Affairs, CN Rail, CN
The Right Honourable Joe Clark, Former Prime Minister of Canada
Dr. Samantha Nutt, Founder & President, War Child Canada, War Child Canada
Katheryn Winnick, Actress, Director, Founder of The Winnick Foundation & Ambassador of President Zelenskyy, UNITED 24 Charity

Head Table Guests
Jenna Donelson, 3rd Vice-President, ECC, and Director, Public Affairs and Strategic Engagement, Humber College, Board Director
John Kirton, Director, ECC, and Director, G7 Research Group, G20 Research Group, BRICS Research Group, Professor Emeritus, Political Science, University of Toronto
Gordon McIvor, President, Empire Club Foundation, Board Director
Sal, Rabbani, President of the Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Antoinette Tumillo, Director, ECC & President, Antoinette Tummillo and Associates Inc., Board Director
Roman Winnick
Lesya Winnick

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon. Welcome to the Empire Club of Canada's closing event of our 119th season. We have an incredible topic and a stellar lineup of speakers today, so I'll be brief. My name is Sal Rabbani, and I'm the President of the Board of Directors of the Empire Club of Canada. I want to acknowledge that I'm hosting today on the traditional and treaty lands of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wyandot Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the traditional territory on which you work and live.

The Empire Club of Canada is a not-for-profit organization, and we'd like to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the club, and make these events possible and complementary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our lead sponsor, CN Rail; thank you to our season sponsors, Bruce Power, Hydro One, and TELUS.

If you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team, using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen. We’re accepting questions from the audience for our speakers through that Q&A portal under the video player.

Our mandate at the Empire Club is to engage and advance the dialogue on what matters most to Canadians. With this event, we're closing an incredibly robust 119th season, during which we maintained our commitment to equity and quality. We offered programming in hybrid format, with a mix of in person and online, always focusing on increasing access to our events. We talked about growth, innovation, entrepreneurship, infrastructure, about jobs, investments, and how to build a low carbon future; we also brought you essential conversations on diversity and inclusion, on gender parity, Indigenous empowerment, youth mental health; and top speakers, influencers, disrupters, changemakers from all walks of life. At the Empire Club of Canada, we also pride ourselves in offering a platform for healthy, constructive, and respectful debates. We strongly believe that public dialogue has the power to connect people and ideas and help us advance as a society and business community. This is why we strive to always bring you different views and opinions—as we're hopefully doing today, with the panel we've put together for you.

Before we turn to our distinguished guests, I'd like to thank the entire team at the Empire Club of Canada, our staff and volunteers, for your work over the past season. You make this happen. Big thanks to my board colleagues, and all our sponsors. We couldn't do what we do without your support. Last but not least, on behalf of the entire team at the Empire Club, I'd like to thank the 13,000 people who attended our events, virtually or in person. Welcome, all of you, to the Empire Club ecosystem. We have an amazing community of colleagues and peers that you can find, network, and continue to exchange with.

One thing that I'm personally very proud of is the fact that, during this season, we were more intentional about bringing the next generation to our events. We saw more students, more young professionals, more young leaders joining us, and enriching our conversations. Increasing access and reach for the young generation is my top objective since joining the Empire Club as President of the Board, and I can promise you that we'll continue to focus on having young people involved in all our future events.

With each of our events, we try to bring you two things: information and inspiration. Today it is about both—but mostly about inspiration. Canada will be 156 years old this year. Also, we recently learned that there's 40 million of us Canadians, which is great news. As we come together to celebrate Canada Day this week, reflecting on the principles of democracy, multiculturalism, and inclusivity, that are central to our identity, there has never been a better time to talk about a more caring and sharing Canada. This is also the best way to close our 119th season. All of our guests have incredible stories; they've done so much for our country. They are leading purposeful lives, and I hope that hearing them will help us all get energized and inspired, help us reflect on how powerful our actions can be, and how each and every one of us can contribute to better Canada. It is now my pleasure to invite Melissa Cotton, Senior Manager, Government Affairs at CN Rail, for welcoming remarks. Melissa, welcome.

Opening Remarks by Melissa Cotton, Senior Manager, Government Affairs, CN Rail, CN
Thank you, Sal, and good morning, bon matin. As Sal mentioned, I am Melissa Cotton, and I'm a proud railroader, the Senior Manager Governor Affairs at CN Rail. I'd like to start by acknowledging that I'm coming to you today from the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe People. At CN Rail, we pride ourselves on being good neighbours. In the over 2000 communities we operate in, we continue to strive to be a vital partner, and work hard to power sustainable growth. Through partnerships, such as todays with the Empire Club, we're teaming up with community leaders across our North American network to help promote sustainable change through modern environmental, social, and governance principles.

Bridging distance and connecting for Canadians is at the heart of everything we do at CN. CN Railroaders are actively involved in their communities. Like the amazing speakers you're going to hear from today, we do this because we want to ensure that we continue to contribute to Canada as a caring and sharing country, as we believe this starts at home. Through our railroaders in the community, and CN Community Fund Programs, we are supporting both small neighborhood groups, and large national and international causes. At CN, we pride ourselves on being these good neighbours. Whether it's to support a local food bank, or those impacted by devastating floods or forest fires, or our friends and family members in Ukraine, CN works to ensure that we provide impact where it is needed the most.

As a world-class transportation leader and trade enabler, CN is essential to the economy, to the customers, and the communities we serve. As the only railroad connecting Canada's eastern and western coasts with the US south through an 18,600-mile rail network, CN and its affiliates have been contributing to community prosperity and sustainable trade since 1919. We are proud to have been a part of this country for over 100 years. Thank you for the opportunity to join you today. And I'd now like to turn it over to Bob Ramsay and the panelists for today's discussion.

Bob Ramsay, President, Ramsay Inc.
Thank you, Melissa. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Bob Ramsay, the host of the Ramsay Talks Speaker Series, and your moderator. It is four days before Canada's 156th birthday, so let's call this the “Canada Day Edition of the Empire Club of Canada's Annual Celebration of Our Home and Native Land.” We're here to tell us stories of a caring and share in Canada. Not just any stories, but ones that resonate with our history, our identity, and our future. In other words, with who we are and who we want to be. And not just any storytellers, either. The three Canadians who have made a mark on their nation's character—certainly here at home, but in the world beyond as well—they are the Right Honourable Joe Clark, former Prime Minister of Canada, Canada's youngest Prime Minister, and one of its most distinguished foreign ministers. Today, at 84, Joe Clark is tied with Paul Martin and Brian Mulroney as Canada's second-oldest living Prime Minister. As his daughter, the Ottawa TV host Catherine Clark, said, “I'm not sure he thinks of himself as an elder statesman, but it's an appropriate term for him.” And 20 years after he gave up the partisan practice of politics—where he was elected eight times, the House of Commons—she says he continues with projects that enhance democracy; he's very committed to democratic institutions. Good afternoon, Mr. Clark.

The Right Honourable Joe Clark, Former Prime Minister of Canada
Good afternoon.

Bob Ramsay
Doctor Samantha Nutt is a physician at Women's College Hospital in Toronto, the founder and president of the renowned humanitarian organizations War Child Canada and War Child USA, and the best-selling author of “Damned Nations: Greed, Guns, Armies, and Aid.” Being the head of War Child has put her alongside children and families on the front lines of some of the world's worst conflict zones. The World Economic Forum chose her as one of 200 young global leaders, and 11 Canadian universities have offered her an honourary degree.

Our third storyteller is Katherine Winnick, the renowned actor and director, best known for her starring roles in the acclaimed TV series Vikings and ABC's Big Sky. Born in Etobicoke, and of Ukrainian descent, she spoke Ukrainian as her first language. Last March, Katheryn and her mother created the Winnick Foundation to raise funds to help Ukraine. And last November, she was sanctioned by the Russian government—along with 99 other Canadians—in response to Canada's sanctions of Russia. She also serves as an Ambassador for President Zelenskyy’s United 24 Initiative.

Now, before we begin our discussion and story, let me tell you my favorite story. It happened at the Canadian Open two weeks ago, when Nick Taylor's putt took an impossibly long time to get into the 18th hole—which made a great Canadian sporting story right there—but when his golfing colleague, Adam Hadwin, came barreling onto the green brandishing a popped bottle of champagne, a zealous security guard tackled him. And what did Hadwin do? What any Canadian would do. As Cathal Kelly recounted in The Globe and Mail, “this was where things went from very Canadian to extremely Canadian.” He got up, brushed himself off, and hugged the man who tackled him. Later that night, Jessica Hadwin reassured everyone that her husband was, “still among the land of the living,” and in true Canadian form, apologized to the security guard for being tackled.

Non-Canadians will nod their heads and say, “yep, they're the most polite people anywhere.” But we Canadians will remind ourselves that Peter Gzowski called the Canadian, “someone who apologizes to a pop machine when it doesn't work.” And that Wade Davis called us, “the nice couple living above the meth lab.” Even in these rude, polarizing, shocking times, it's nice that the arc of our myths bends so sweetly to the idea of niceness—better that than some other nation’s abiding myth. But the stories we teach, or the stories we tell each other, survive contact with reality outside our borders. Let me begin by inviting Joe Clark to speak to this storied subject. Mr. Clark, you’re on.

The Rt. Hon. Joe Clark Well, thank you very much, and I'm privileged to be part of this. I'm speaking today from London in the UK, so at a slightly different time than you all are. I'm not at risk of going to sleep while I'm speaking, but I've seen it happen with others, and I hope that you can avoid that. I find this a very interesting topic because, for a long time, I think we collectively have assumed that our role in the world may be diminishing. That’s not because of some cause in us, but because other nations, which were once not as competent to be involved in shaping international events, are now clearly competent. We in fact have a substantial role we can play, because we have some characteristics that others don't.

As I look at the G7, the group of seven, those contain—we are the only member of the G7 whose relationship to colonialism was as a colony. That might sound like a small difference. It's not. It's a very large one. Because it gives us credentials and access to other countries, and a status of being more equal than, perhaps, some powers are when we are working with them. And that has been demonstrated in a couple of quite remarkable Canadian activities. And when I say Canadian activities, I'm not speaking just about the Canadian government. These were activities that enjoyed the support of a number of Canadians, large numbers of Canadians; and I had privilege, I was privileged as Foreign Minister and as Prime Minister to be involved in some of those.

One of the great impacts, one of the great signals, I think, of the Canadian response to the boat people all those years ago, was that while the government took those initiatives—two governments did; Mr. Trudeau's less vigorously than mine, but both of us took those initiatives—what was really interesting was that what pushed that forward was the people of Canada. Individuals indicated an interest in sponsorship that no one had anticipated before. And our number, it was clearly a case of the public driving foreign policy in a very productive way. The other issue that I think is quite important to us in terms of understanding who we are was, of course, the Canadian participation in the end of apartheid in South Africa. We'd been interested in that issue for a long time. But it became clear that South Africa was playing a long and waiting game. It knew that critics like Canada would be heard from every four years, every two years, when the Commonwealth met, but the pressure would otherwise go off. So, a Canadian initiative, launched in Vancouver—which I had the privilege of sharing—was to establish the Commonwealth Committee of Foreign Ministers on Southern Africa. And what we did was continue pressure almost every two months on some other aspect of the South African policy. I want to make it clear that the South African move away from apartheid was, principally, a South African endeavor. They led it, they framed it, they made it happen. But they needed friends; and we were in a position to play a quite influential role in that regard. So those are some opening remarks, Bob, that I'm pleased to make.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you so much, Mr. Clark. It's interesting because—and we will go next to Katheryn Winnick. But I wonder—and we can answer this question later, all of us—I wonder if the world cares much anymore about caring and sharing stories. So, I'll just sort of leave that question hanging in the air, and we'll all land on it after everybody’s given their opening remarks. Katheryn, over to you.

Katheryn Winnick
First of all, thank you, Empire Club, for having me. I'm very honoured to be here, and with such distinguished guests, and being part of this beautiful event. Talking about caring and sharing stories—well, I'll start by telling you my story. Katheryn Winnick. I'm actually here in Los Angeles right now, but I'm born and raised in Toronto, Canada; I'm a very proud Canadian. Also, of Ukrainian descent; I'm first generation Canadian. Both my parents are immigrants, and my grandparents are from Ukraine. And I went to York University. I left Canada, probably in my 20’s, and moved to the States to be involved in acting—and, eventually, now, directing. I've gotten involved in television, both on Big Sky as well as Vikings. But I’ll never—I'll always, of all the countries I've been in and all the work that I've worked in the States, I’ve always come back to my roots of being Canadian.

And for me, what it means to be Canadian is really important—and I think it's something that is one of the reasons why we're all here today—is sharing your stories and sharing the aspects of being so diverse and multicultural. Now, I also—coming from a Ukrainian background—I was privileged enough to be an ambassador of President Zelenskyy UNITED24 on what's happening in Ukraine right now, and started the Winnick Foundation to help raise funds, specifically, for Ukraine and women and children. And that diversity is something that's really important, and that's something that, being Canadian, everybody comes from some common immigrant family. And it's important for me—and also, so proud—to be part of such an incredible country that celebrates all the different cultures.

Coming from Toronto, I remember, there's Bloor West Village—which is Ukrainian Town—and we used to go back, when I was in high school, and go to Chinatown in the late nights, and there's the Greek Town. And it's, for me, I have so many incredible childhood friends that have so many different stories of how they came to be Canadian, and what's their history and their background. And that's my first introduction to being here. So, thank you for having me.

Bob Ramsay
Right. Thank you so much, Katheryn. Samantha Nutt, over to you. I'm sure you have a million stories, and it's a matter of choosing from the embarrassment of riches. But over to you.

Dr. Samantha Nutt
Thank you. Thank you, Bob. And I have to say, it is very difficult. I'm a little nervous to be the Nutt on the panel who gets to follow the brilliant Katheryn, and the esteemed and much beloved Prime Minister Joe Clark. I promise, that's my only extremely tacky joke for today.

Bob Ramsay
It’s a great joke.

Dr. Samantha Nutt
But as mentioned when Bob generously introduced me, I am a medical doctor, and I'm the founder and president of War Child Canada and War Child USA. And we, essentially, work with children on the front lines throughout the world. We work with about 600,000 of them every single year on long-term initiatives to help them recover from the trauma of war, and rebuild their lives, and rebuild their communities. We are investing in future generations. And so, in that context, I have actually spent, now—I'm dating myself—almost three decades going in and out of various war zones throughout the world. And prior to War Child, I worked for the United Nations and other non-governmental organizations. And in fact, I just got back from Uganda two days ago, where I was along the Congolese and Southern Sudanese border—which, many people are not aware, but Uganda has about 1.5 million refugees. We are the, War Child’s the single largest, now, education provider for refugees in that context. And it is at, Uganda is the single largest refugee-hosting country in Africa. And I mentioned this by way of background only because my experiences of the impact that Canada can have on the world and is having. I mean, I have witnessed many of these successes firsthand. But at the same time, I have also witnessed some of the tragedies and failures that our foreign policy—and specifically, our aid policy—can have on the world's most vulnerable people.

And so, I just wanted to start with a little bit of context—and I'm only going to be talking for about 5 minutes—but I just felt it was important to reflect on the realities of the world as it is right now. Because you see, we are living through the worst refugee and displacement crisis since World War II, with more than 110 million people who have been forced from their homes, largely as a result of armed violence, poverty, and climate change. And many of them experienced the kind of extreme hardships that few of us fortunate enough to be living above the 49th parallel can even begin, frankly, to comprehend. They struggle to access education and employment, and they are at very high risk—young girls and women, especially—of sexual abuse and exploitation. And the vast majority of these civilians living in war are extremely traumatized. And tragically, and this is something we don't talk about, I think, often enough. Over the past few years, this kind of armed violence has only been accelerating. And Prime Minister Clark alluded to this as well, it's not a coincidence. It isn't happening in a vacuum. We are living through an era of shifting power structures and alliances, with declining US geopolitical prominence, and of course, the expanded influence of both Russia and China—especially on Africa and the Middle East. And this has very real—and I will be blunt here—very painful implications for civilians throughout the world; but particularly, those living in unstable environments.

Human rights, and political and social rights, in fact, I would argue the entire post-World War multilateral systems and diplomatic architecture—the very things that were designed to resolve disputes, and protect civilians from future despots, and dictators, from future genocides, and hardships, and deprivations—these, unfortunately, are in decline. They are under threat, especially when it comes to their credibility and their influence.

So, what does this mean for Canada and for the rest of the world? Well, what it means is that, in unstable environments, governments—such, when they exist—and other militarized groups, they can easily find allies, for example, in the form of mercenary outfits like the Wagner Group. Which, not coincidentally, over the past few years, has exported more than 15 billion dollars’ worth of gold from Sudan, circumventing Western sanctions against Russia and helping to finance Russia's efforts, war efforts in Ukraine. Right now, since March of this year, Sudanese civilians are trapped in between two warring factions. Our staff right now in Darfur, Sudan are in hiding as a result of these realities. And thousands of people have been killed and more than four million have been displaced from their homes.

Or consider, for example, the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, which is a conflict that has killed more than five million people and is considered to be the worst war in African history. Where China has 13 out of 15 resource mines, lithium mines, which are being used to extract lithium to create batteries, including for our electronic vehicles. As a result of our desire to have more electric vehicles on this side of the world.

Or we can also think about groups like ISIS. I mean, ISIS has expanded its footprint across Africa. It's very active, I can tell you, in Afghanistan, where it is far too easy to find young, aggrieved men and grow their base. The day that I arrived in Uganda, in fact, there was a horrific attack on a boarding school along the Congolese border, and 41 children and teachers were killed. Slaughtered. And I know this is, none of this is easy to comprehend or even hear, but we have to, as Canadians, we have to. Because you see, this flood of arms and this rampant exploitation of resources in countries gripped by conflict, and the increasing desperation of civilians living within these environments—I mean, these represent a grave threat to peace and security absolutely everywhere. And yet, these are conflicts and crises that we don't often pause to consider. You know, when we think about our ODA, we often congratulate ourselves for our generosity throughout the world. But we are still coming in at less than half the .07 percent of our gross national income. That target was set by Lester B Pearson in 1969. We have been very generous when it comes to the conflict in Ukraine. But as I speak with you right now, the other crises throughout the world, the global humanitarian appeals for those crises stand at less than 20 percent funded midway through the year.

So, as Canadians—and I'm wrapping up in one minute here—we are so proud of many aspects of our history, and our record on a global level, and rightly so. We were one of the founding architects of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, the landmines treaty, the ICC, and many others. We are soft power; we are active listeners; we are diplomatic superheroes. And we don't have the bomb, and we don't want it, and we don't think anyone else should have it either. And that is a legacy that we should be very proud of. But—and this, I think, is an important caveat—these historic narratives, this mythology that we cling to, are we living up to that potential, now, today? You know, humanitarian aid is, I have come to understand, an imperfect response to a violently imperfect world. It shouldn't be needed, but it is. And so, as we think about Canada Day and the role that we all play globally, I would encourage you to consider how we can build upon that legacy. You know, there are people throughout the world I have been so privileged to meet and interact with, whose lives have been touched by our global giving every single day. And to many of us here at home, that progress can seem invisible. But to them, it is everything. Thank you.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you, Samantha. It’s interesting, because when a nations’ national myths or origin stories—or whatever we tell ourselves on our national holiday—become detached from reality, then it really doesn’t serve anybody’s purpose. And when Samantha talked about painful implications, I think we're feeling a lot of those painful implications right now, because the world is changing so quickly, kind of against our value system, right? And one of the things to remember about all of this change is, things will never be happening as slowly as they are right now, okay? So, in other words, the pain is only going to get worse, or we kind of have to kind of resolve to play, I would suggest, a different, a less ambitious role in the world. But I'd like to turn this over to Katheryn, and Joe, and then to Samantha, to say, okay, so, given all this, given the fact that there are many people around the world who think we are helping them simply by being Canadian, by putting forth our values—and I think everybody agrees that things aren't what they were—what specifically can we do? And I mean, Katheryn, you may want to talk about Ukraine. Joe, you have handled these files for 40 years, right? So, you are the most experienced at them. And then we'll ask Samantha, cause you are on the ground in the world's worst conflict zones. Katheryn, over to you first.

Katheryn Winnick
That's a loaded question. What could you do? I honestly think that when the President of the Empire Club started this beautiful event by also encouraging the youth to speak up, and getting them more involved in the next generation, and what, as Canadians, what it really means. And I think that is something that is important to embrace as younger generations. What can we do with them? What can we do together with somebody with experience, with an older generation as well? And I think it's important to constantly go with the changes. This is, it's not gonna change.

Like, with AI, that's happening with, you know, a lot of Canadians, you know, for me especially also, too, that, you know, being Canadian, I left Canada to go to the States to be able to make a living as an actress and director. And being in the film industry, in the media side of it, that is such a platform that we should take advantage of, and be able to support our storytellers that are Canadians. Starting from scripts, from supporting Canadian stories, and putting it out there in the media, and creating television content that is embracing all these changes. And I think that is something that is a missed mark. I know right now, just to give you a bit of example of a landscape, for me to be cast in Canadian TV shows or movies, I need to do it out of—well, I'm in a different position, but originally I had to do it from Los Angeles. I couldn't even necessarily be able to get a job in my country, or a leading actress job, unless I left. Just the perception of the world cinema scale is that the strong actors and storytellers are US-based. And it's a false perception. And I think, as a country, we need to be able to support the youth in writing these stories, telling the stories. Also, having the foundation and the infrastructure to be able to have these stories come to fruition. If it's through government grants to be able to create television documentaries or movies, I think that would be a medium that will be able to be passed on to the next generation and reach the youth, to be able to do something. And that media is, this is the landscape we're in. We're in a short-term gratification through Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and all the other different vehicles of social network. And it's important that we go with the changes and be able to work with that platform.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you, Katheryn. Joe Clark, you are a long-term gratification kind of guy. Tell us what your view is on what, specifically, Canadians should be doing to have a more positive effect in the world that perhaps we haven't done before.

The Rt. Hon. Joe Clark
Well, I think the other panelists here are examples of having a significant impact in the world. And they would be the first to admit that they are not alone in that. There's a sense in which there was a period when a lot of our international impact was carried out by diplomats, and some of our diplomats were extraordinarily able. That was partly the circumstances at the time. We had standing, and we exercised that standing as quietly as we could among other powers, the difference. But part of the reason that I talked about the boat people and others was that these were citizen initiatives. And what we've heard from the other panelists today are, in effect, citizen’s initiatives. They were, when I think back on our impact in Africa, you know what was defining in Africa? It was CUSO, the Canadian University Services Overseas. It was CIDA, the Canadian International Development Agency, which, when it was set up, spent at abundant part of its budget in Africa making a very real difference.

I think that the idea of being active and effective internationally has become too narrowly channeled into economic—and I suppose power—channels. And that means that there is not enough attention being given to our capacity. Our capacity, not just the current performance of some of the people, some of my fellow panelists here. I regret that CIDA, our International Development Agency, gradually lost its signature, I guess. But it should not, that should not be a reason to step away from those activities. We have a capacity not only to express and respond with compassion, but also a capacity to get agreement that a number of other countries cannot. I have an immense admiration for formal diplomats; I know them better than most people—I knew them better than most people. But now there needs to be a much greater focus upon the instincts that drew us attention, with regard to the boat people; that helped us achieve some of the accomplishments that came from the campaign against apartheid. Is this possible? Of course, it's possible. Are we going to be in the headlines every day? That's not our purpose. Our purpose is to be dealing with real problems, and to encourage ordinary people, whatever their age. I mean, Canadians who are not carrying some kind of status, particularly, to become engaged using their own capacities.

I think there is a sense in which we have to go back to the future. Our, whatever Canadians thought of our role in the world, there was a time—and I was simply a passenger on, I was a sometime conductor on that train—but there was a time when a great deal of our impact was judged on the basis of what we did in human conditions. Whether that was responding to refugees and—for example, Ethiopia years ago—or other questions. We need to go back to that. We need to redefine foreign policy not as foreign policy, but as foreign impact.

Bob Ramsay
So now, let me turn to Samantha. Joe Clark, when you said CIDA has lost its signature, Samantha's head started going up and down a lot, and so clearly, you agree. And you know, government departments may...

Dr. Samantha Nutt
Yeah.

Bob Ramsay
...may ebb and wane, but one of the great characteristics of Canadians is that we're really good self-organizers. So, the Syrian refugees, the Vietnamese refugees, part of the response to Ukraine, et cetera. We seem to just kind of be able to start things like you did, Samantha. So, what is your view of all this?

Dr. Samantha Nutt
You know, I was thinking, listening to Katheryn, and listening to the Prime Minister, I—look, I think that both of these are incredibly important points. And Katheryn talked about. The importance of narratives and Canadian storytelling and overcoming some of the cynicism that, particularly, young people are exposed to all the time, that is often very vacuous and doesn't get into some of these big issues. And so being able to tell those stories and to combat that cynicism, and provide outlets, is really important. So, I really do want to emphasize the importance of the kind of creative arts in providing those stories and those opportunities for engagement, and to talk about what we want to represent as a nation. Which is, you know, I absolutely agree with Joe Clark. Part of the problem is we have succumbed to this sense of cynicism and ineffectuality when it comes to the role that we can play on an international level. If you look at the terrific strides that were achieved by someone, for example, like former Foreign Minister Lloyd Axworthy, it was because there was a vision, there was engagement, there was investment in creating this sense of what Canada had to contribute to the world.

And that still very much exists. But it is being undermined when we shortchange our ODA, when we see it as a nice to have, not a need to have, when we succumb to cynicism and criticism, and pile on with groups like the United Nations and other international bodies, and don't recognize that, in an era where you've got resurgent populists and other armed groups, we need to be providing those kinds of compelling alternatives and we need to be investing in them. And we need to disassociate the people from the politics, because it's all become extremely hostile, and rage-inducing, and personal, when it isn’t. You can disagree with the policy and not disagree with the person. And I think that that's something that Canada has to bring to the world, in terms of our overall of our overall ethos. We're not like Americans on that front. But just when it comes to what individuals can do around the impact, we don't have to wait for the Canadian government to invest in a better future for people who are living with war, who are living with the impact of climate change throughout the world. And we have this overarching sense—and I've been confronting it for 30 years—that charity begins at home. But we don't live in a vacuum. And other people's problems in other corners of the world can very quickly also become our problems, especially those of us who believe in democracy, and human rights, and the rule of law.

So, if you want to have an impact, there are tremendous Canadian-led organizations that are directly implementing. Who are investing in the development of civil society, and compelling alternatives to some of these rogue actors throughout the world. And what they need more than anything else is that sustained, consistent investment. And I think that, once we're better at telling those stories and showcasing those successes, then I think people will invest more meaningfully and consistently. But we haven't done that. We believe that aid is somehow wasted, that it doesn't get to where it needs to go. And nothing could be further from the truth.

Katheryn Winnick
Just to add to that—and Samantha, that was amazing, and I totally a hundred percent agree with you—for me right now, it's important to also recognize where we are in our time right now. There's a war that's happening right now in Ukraine. It's unbelievable. Never my wildest dream did I imagine that we would be in this position. I recently just got back from Ukraine—I went there just a month ago—I was a guest of President Zelenskyy's to speak at the summit there. And the travel even just getting there alone—going to Poland, taking a four-hour drive down to a small town, underneath, after Warsaw, and then a 14-hour train ride just to get to Kyiv. And when I got there—and of course, you're nervous, and I wasn't allowed to use the phone, you don't know what's gonna happen—and when you get there, it's just so surreal. You walk out of the train station, and you're seeing buildings that are completely destroyed, and that have been blasted by missiles, and people are walking around with such a, such a weight on their shoulders. And it breaks my heart to think that this is happening. And this is not a Ukrainian problem; this is a world problem. And we all have to do something about it.

I was in the hotel room, and every hour or so—sometimes the middle of the night—for few hours, there would be air alarms going off. And being there, not knowing what it's like, I’d run down to the bomb shelter, scared that it's going to be a hit. And I have video off my cell phone of a drone attack that happened just outside of my hotel room. To think that this is happening in 2023. Why aren't we doing more to stop this?

And I think it's—and to answer your questions—what we could do right now is one of the reasons I started the Winnick Foundation is because I didn't know where to go. And I had so many friends and, especially, even fans that were asking me, “how can I help Ukraine?” And not having the right resources, or having the right trust, to be able to say that my money is going to go towards, directly to Ukraine. And that is one of the reasons—if not the main reasons—I started the Winnick Foundation, knowing that one hundred percent of all of it will be going directly to President Zelenskyy's UNITED24 and going for humanitarian efforts, specifically to help women and children, and rebuilding Ukraine.

So, there is stuff that we could do right now. Find somebody—if it's not Ukraine, find something that you believe in, and find great charity or foundation that you've vetted, and that you support. You're welcome to go to Winnick foundation, or the War Child of Canada—somewhere where you know that the right, the people care about it, and that your resources will be of value and have direct effect in helping the world. So, thank you.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you. Thank you, Katheryn. Joe, do you have something to add to that?

The Rt. Hon. Joe Clark
I want to build on it. I think that one of the really interesting things for me is to—the other panelists caused me to focus upon the impact of media. There's a concern about social media and the unsettling nature it has—and that is another debate. The point is that social media recognizes the power of media. And I think that the arguments have been made about taking positive advantage of the power of media is important. It's important in terms of encouraging Canadians, using media instruments to encourage Canadians to act as they did, as they have done in crisis, whether that crisis was the boat people, or response to other kinds of matter, other issues.

The other thing that is related to this—because it has to do with what works in a certain period and doesn't in another—the sad reality is that CIDA was running down before it ended. CIDA was an extraordinary idea when it began. Why are we not looking for other extraordinary ideas that are not judged simply by what we say at conferences, or by economic matters? What is the next Canadian International Development Agency? I mentioned before, the defining rule that CIDA and CUSO had in Canada's profile and role, our capacity to do other things in Africa. What are the equivalents? There's all sorts of imagination now. I, there was a time when our diplomats were our most effective international actors. And some of them were extraordinary. But this is also a time when our citizens, if they can be mobilized, can also play a major role. I think we want to look, not simply with regret at what no longer works, but analyze why it no longer works. And more particularly, investigate what, in current circumstances, given the instinct of Canadians to be part of the world, given the fact that we are not accustomed to manipulating other countries, but to cooperating with them, what are the new instruments we should be considering? Some of this doesn't need discussion; some of it's being done by the two other members of this panel. But more of that needs to happen. We've seen an old order decline. We need to be very deliberate about considering the forms of a new order that can allow Canadians, lucky, lucky Canadians, in our circumstance, in our history, to have a more constructive impact in the world.

Katheryn Winnick
I love what you just said, and that the seconds with what Samantha said, is that it starts with individual people. You don't have to necessarily have the platform, as long as you have a voice´ and every single person, at home and watching this, can have an impact. You don't necessarily need to be, have gazillions of dollars, or necessarily have the platform, but if you have your voice, and you, you'll find a way. And it all starts with one person, even a dollar at a time.

QUESTION & ANSWER

Bob Ramsay
So, Katheryn, thank you for that, because you've now let us shift effortlessly into the questions from the audience part of today. And I have, as it turns out, on the screen, I have two questions for you. The first one—let me read this—is, as a Ukrainian adoptee myself, I've been wanting to get involved to help. What can I do to get involved, more than reposting as an Instagram influencer? That's the first question. And the second is, as you are building, are working to rebuild Ukraine with President Zelenskyy, do you have plans on working with others to be rebuilding orphanages as well? So, how do we get involved in orphanages?

Katheryn Winnick
Well, first of all, I'm welcome to—people can donate whatever amount of money or anything to the Winnick Foundation. Even if you don't have money, feel free to tell your story on how, why it's important; it doesn’t necessarily have to be a monetary thing. But it's, I think that is one place that you can rest assured that the money will be going directly to UNITED24. In terms of rebuilding Ukraine, recently, when I was in Ukraine, I got a chance to go to the villages, specifically, that were hit the most during the Russian aggression, especially right at the very onset of the war. Irpin is one of them, in Bucha. And it was, 70 percent of it is completely totaled; and people are living there. And so, I got a chance to see what they're doing in terms of building, rebuilding Ukraine.

And this is a long process. It’s not going to be built overnight. But one of the most inspiring things that I've ever seen—which I want to talk about, because it's also stories of caring and sharing—is how united everybody was, even though we’re in a war. But they were, it was very inspirational in a lot of ways. Where local bakers were there, supporting and fighting for democracy, and fighting together alongside with people that had been trained in the military. And my, a jewelry-maker now was working to protect me when I was going through—not that I need protection—but how every single person was doing their part. And a lot of people have left Ukraine. But also, it's important to recognize a lot of people came back to fight, also, too, and to do their part, and to support. If it is a matter of creating a food source, or doing whatever they can, because they feel that is their home, and they want to be able to be a part of this change. Um, if that answers your question.

Bob Ramsay
It does.

Katheryn Winnick
I think we all can do so.

Bob Ramsay
Yeah, good. So obviously, I think there are a lot of people on this call who will, when we're done, be Googling the Winnick Foundation. So, next question: has virtue signaling become Canada's replacement for real concrete action? It's interesting because I've never heard the phrase virtue signaling until about five years ago; and now, I hear it 10 times a day. So, it must be in the air. And some people—the tone of this questions tells me that the writer of the question thinks there's too much of it in the air. Could I have your views? Let's start with Samantha Nutt, and then Joe Clark, and then Katheryn.

Dr. Samantha Nutt
I think there is a certain element of that. The real work of change is long, and it is hard, and we tend to trade in quick hits and quick solutions. But even if you look at—I mean, the enemy of effective aid everywhere in the world is only one thing, and that's inconsistency. It's the gains that evaporate the moment the cameras go home and the media loses interest. And yet, that's often when the needs begin to increase dramatically. I mean, there are more than 22 different conflicts raging throughout the world right now; there are 50 million people in the world who are at risk of acute starvation. And so, while I think that there may in fact be a role for virtue signaling—as long as it’s not too righteous and too alienating—if it actually encourages people to do good things, to get involved, to contribute to good causes, then I think that there's a role to play within that.

But to be honest with you, the real work is around consistency, it's around deepening engagement, it's around, you know, looking at generational change that reduces, frankly—at least in the environments in which we're working—the real drivers of war, which are poverty, which are the lack of rights of women and girls, which are a lack of good governance, and all of these things that, you know, aren't really, frankly, as sexy as food, water, shelter, blankets, the idea of keeping people alive. They take time, and they take effort, and that takes a much a much deeper level of engagement. And that should be reflected in our foreign aid and our foreign policy. So many of our grants are short-term international humanitarian assistance grants. We're giving, we're keeping people alive, while not giving them reasons to live. We cut big checks to foreign entities, and then it takes a percentage off the top, and then move it to a field office that takes a percentage off the top, and then they subcontract out to organizations like ours, like War Child, and you know, those dollars turn into pennies pretty damn fast.

And so, if we were thinking about what kind of impact we want to have, how we would go about it would be very different. And the virtue signaling piece is only one piece of it. You know, that's the announcement, you know, everybody, a lot of fanfare about announcements. But when you really break into the impact of that announcement, that's when that analysis gets lost. And that's what, I think, what we need more of. But we can, to Katheryn's point, we can, as individuals, circumvent that through consistent, meaningful donations to humanitarian causes. I say to people all the time, if you really want to promote change, don't write a check once and walk away. It's much better to be a regular donor—for example, a monthly donor—that allows organizations to plan, and to be invested in some of these longer-term issues around unequal access to things like education that will ultimately make the biggest difference.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you, Samantha. Joe Clark.

The Rt. Hon. Joe Clark
I think virtue signaling is a major problem, not least because it's attractive to governments. It allows them to appeal to a domestic audience, by appearing to do more than they are doing internationally. And it has become almost a substitute for policy, I think, in many cases. I think the other challenge we have to look at—another challenge we have to look at—is how do we mobilize citizens who are interested in these questions.

Again, my colleague panelists here have been very successful at that in very specific areas. Not as successful as they'd like to be. And I'm going to go back to a highlight of my experience as Prime Minister, which was the boat people. Because we, the government was forced by the people to expand that program. And what's interesting about that is that the people who forced us to expand it, who said “we want to do something,” actually did things. The impact that individual that people—whom no one had ever heard of—constituents of mine who had not, I had not considered to be interested in these kinds of questions, had a profound effect upon the lives of the people they went out to. So, in a in a media age, how do we mobilize and make feel effective again, individual citizens? I think there is more will to have impact than there are means. And so, we have to look at ways in which, we have to see if there are replicas of activities in the past that are part of our tradition, that can be made more effective in a media age.

Bob Ramsay
Thank you so much, both of you, for your frankness and your passion on this. Clearly, it is a subject that comes gift-wrapped with lots of emotion. Unfortunately, in a conversation like this, there's way too much to say, and way too little time. And sadly, we're going to have to end now. I must say it, it's rare that I come across an event that is both heartfelt and mindful at the same time. And this has been both, and I want to thank all of the panelists for making it that way. I want to thank the Empire Club for organizing this, and I want to thank all of you who are on the line, and who will be celebrating Canada Day in four days, hopefully in a caring, and sharing, and giving way. And I now want to turn it over to Sal Rabbani to conclude.

Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
Thank you, Bob. And thanks again to our sponsors for their support, and everyone joining us today. A huge thank you to our panelists for sharing your perspectives and insights. You are an inspiration. Having you with us and hosting conversations like this one is why we're so proud of our work and our role at the Empire Club.

As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on demand on our website. The recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an e-mail with the link.

As for us at the Empire Club, we will be back in the fall, with an exciting lineup of events and conversations on topics that matter. I want to express my heartfelt gratitude for the invaluable experiences, connections, and ideas this season has brought to the club. May the coming year bring even greater achievements, engaging discussions, and opportunities for collaboration, as we continue to build a stronger and more inclusive Canada together. Thank you for your participation and support. Enjoy your afternoon. This meeting is now adjourned.