Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow: A New Future for Canadian Cities

September 12, 2023

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow: a New Future for Canadian Cities

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
The Honourable John Baird, Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Her Worship Olivia Chow Mayor, City of Toronto
Neil Pakey, President & CEO, Nieuport Aviation

Head Table Guests
Liban Abokor, Managing Partner, Reimagine LABS, Chair, Foundation for Black Communities
Victoria Mancinelli, Director, PR Marketing & Strategic Partnerships, LiUNA
Christopher Morgan, CEO, Hoverlink Ontario Inc.
Valérie Picher, Board Chair, Community Living Toronto
Dave Samuel, Partner, Birch Hill Equity
Mike Van Soelen, Past President, Empire Club of Canada, Managing Principal, Navigator Ltd.
Jeffery Steiner, President, Angel Investors Ontario Board Member, Toronto Parking Authority
Flavio Volpe, Board Director, Empire Club Of Canada, President, Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association (APMA)
Lal Wanniappa, Principal, Lal Wanniappa Consulting
Leslie Woo, CEO CivicAction
Julia Zhang, President & CEO JD Development Group Corp.

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.


Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon, and welcome to the 120th season of the Empire Club of Canada. My name is Sal Rabbani. It's an honour to stand before our community, both in person and virtually, for a second season as chair of the Board of Directors.

To formally begin this afternoon, I want to acknowledge that we're gathering on the Traditional and Treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabeg, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you work and live.

Today's event has many significances; it's an event of many firsts. It's the first major speaking engagement of Toronto's newly elected Mayor, Olivia Chow, the third woman and first woman of Colour to serve in this role. On behalf of the Empire Club, and all of us here today, congratulations, Mayor, and welcome. We look forward to the future and wish you every success in this important—I might add, not easy—job that lies ahead of you.

Today's event also marks the opening of our 120th season. As we kick off this milestone season, it's essential to reflect on the diverse range of individuals who have shared their insights on our stage in the past. Since its inception, the Empire Club has hosted more than 3,500 prominent Canadian and international leaders. I'd like to express my gratitude to our esteemed past presidents, board of directors, staff, and volunteers. Thank you.

This season, my steadfast commitment is to continue to foster a dynamic and inclusive community, which extends to our dedication to engaging students and youth. To this end, every event this season will feature a sponsored student table, providing them with access to our professional community, and the brightest minds, and influential leaders across diverse fields in Canada. We've got folks here from TMU and the University of Toronto, I believe York University, and Humber College. Thanks for being here.

I can't think of a better way for our 120th season opener than the one we have today. If Canada is the best country in the world—and I strongly believe that to be the case—with all its imperfections and challenges, and if Canada is the best country in the world, then Toronto is Canada at its best. I've been a Torontonian at heart for 30-plus years now, and I love Toronto. I think everyone in this room has their own Toronto story. There are many reasons why we love this city. It's Canada's beating heart, contributing 11 percent to our country's economy. More than half the residents were born outside Canada. Only on the streets of Toronto can you hear over 190 languages—and I could go on. Like all great things, there are also quite a few reasons why we sometimes dislike Toronto. We face an almost existential crisis as a city when it comes to housing affordability. Add to this climate change and mental health, and we're in for some of the most important challenges in our recent history.

Making a city great and keeping it great is not a sprint—it's not even a marathon. The job is never done. Challenges keep on changing. Many come from within, and many are external. Uncertainty, disruption, and polarization are global. But their effects are very local, and we all feel them. So, in order to make Toronto even greater for all of us and for future generations, we need to all come together.

There's something fascinating about cities. They have this incredible ability to withstand the test of time, rise above influences and ideologies—sometimes better than empires or countries. There is nothing arbitrary, abstract, or random about cities. Cities evolve with their people, and become a reflection of their residents. It takes a city to build and grow a city. In this room, we have some of the most smartest, and most important people in Toronto, and so there's so many ways in which we can all contribute. Get involved in your neighbourhoods, challenge your elected officials, tell them what you think about works and whatnot in the city, and donate, volunteer.

If you're too busy for any of these, please do this one thing: support local businesses. There are close to 100,000 small and medium-sized businesses in Toronto. I'm obviously biased—in my day job, I'm focused on supporting entrepreneurs—but I can guarantee you, that buying from small businesses, and helping them grow, is one of the most important contributions you can make to the future and the prosperity of our city. So, here's my call to action today: please don't check out on your city. If you want a Toronto that puts you first, that continues to deliver for you, you need to be there for Toronto. It's our collective duty.

Our two guests today have many things in common—more than you would think. But the most important thing is their love for Toronto. I'm sure that we'll be more informed and more inspired about the future of our city after today's conversation.

Some housekeeping: we accept questions from the audience for our speakers, so you can undertake to scan that QR code on your program booklet. And for those of you online, there's a Q&A under the video player. And for those that are joining us online, if you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen.

The Empire Club is a not-for-profit organization, and we'd like to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the club, and make these events possible and complementary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our Lead Event Sponsor, Billy Bishop, Toronto City Airport; thank you to our VIP Reception Sponsors, Hoverlink, LiUNA, Wasabi; and thank you to our Supporting Sponsor APMA; and thank you, also, to our Season Sponsor, Hydro One.

It is now my pleasure to invite Neil Pakey, President, and CEO of Nieuport Aviation, to introduce our guest speaker. Neil, welcome.

Opening Remarks by Neil Pakey, President & CEO, Nieuport Aviation
Yeah. Thank you very much, and, and a real pleasure being here, and, and helping to make this great event a reality. I'm delighted to be here for the gathering. This is the first podium event for Toronto's new mayor, Her Worship, Olivia Chow. And on behalf of Nieuport Aviation and our partners, our airport partners, Ports Toronto, it's an honour to stand before you and extend a warm welcome to Mayor Chow on behalf of everybody here. So, thank you.

Your life of leadership, and dedication to our community and country has been evident for us all to see. And you know, I was, I was lucky enough to hear Mayor Chow speak at a book event last night and, and remark on yourself being the 66th mayor of Toronto, and how, how lucky that is, because in the Chinese culture of the 66 is such a lucky number. It's a very lucky number, having two sixes together, and I'm sure it's going to be very lucky for Toronto, as well.

As you may have guessed from my accent, I don't actually come from Toronto. So, I've, I'm, I'm actually coming from Scotland, in fact. And one little story: when I was first coming, five years ago from Scotland, one of my friends took me to one side and says, "You know, you're going on the same journey that John Naismith went on." John Naismith, 150 years ago, came on this journey; he married Margaret Young. And I'm sure everybody knows that—but if you don't know that, you may have heard of his son James Naismith, who invented the basketball. So, when I read in Wikipedia that James Naismith is a Canadian-American, I think the only bit without debate is that he was Canadian, because I would say he's a Scots-Canadian.

I've been working in airports and airlines for all my career, really. In 1978, my first day at work, I stood there, and I was loading bags with the, on the side of the plane, the tag to Toronto. So, you know, from that moment I had it, was a bug I—I just looked at all these destinations and realised there's things out there, there's different communities, different cultures. And so, you know, from that day, I dreamt, really, about Toronto. And we, we had loads of Toronto flights going out of my airport in Scotland. And as I say, five years ago, I arrived here. And I've really been impressed with the tapestry of diverse cultures, ambitions, dreams—and you know, it's great. Toronto, though, is, is not just a city or place that people can call home; it's a heartbeat, an identity is rich history; most important, it's full of future potential.

Today, we find ourselves an important inflection point, where we're focused on shaping a better future for Toronto as a rapidly growing, world-class city. And we know our downtown airport, Billy Bishop, is a significant contributor to the city's economy. But airports—and I think you know, I'm lucky enough to have met the mayor, also, at a fundraising for the arts. I sit on the Committee of the, the fundraising for the, the Mayor's Evening for the Arts—which I'm sure everyone would love to support—and, and listening to the mayor talk about the community, and public arts, and all these passions, it just tells you, you know, it reminds you that airports are public spaces, and we have a role to play. And, and we're trying to seize that opportunity, and how we work with our communities. It's much more than a transportation facility; we're a place where community comes together. And also, as passengers, to explore new places, and cultures, experience arts and music, and conduct business. And we also bring just as many people into Toronto to, to meet our communities, and to experience our arts, and entertainment, and industries.

But let's not forget, Ornge is one of our great customers, too, at the airport. And of course, their achievements in saving, saving lives is, is, is just about as strong, as strong a thing as you can do, obviously. So, we often overlook the role of Ornge, and I just wanted to highlight, highlight them.

So, yeah. As I said, airport's a perfect space for public arts. We're proud to host a few of the city's Artworx:TO exhibits and have partnered with the Indigenous artists also, in featuring their works, to include the remarkable bronze and granite sculpture Maanjidowin: the Gathering. And that's why we're supporters of the Mayor's for the Arts Evening on November 13th.

And I can't forget heritage is another passion. In my previous role as CEO of the Shannon Group in Ireland, and we were responsible for both Shannon Airport and Shannon Heritage. An odd pairing you, you might think. But not if you look differently at the role of an airport in its community. We have an obligation to protect and foster our heritage, be that to remind people of the strong aviation stories behind the Little Norway Park, for example, and Ireland Park, are to help cultivate that history, that heritage in our communities, so we might celebrate those who were here before us, and the cultures passed down the generations. And our Indigenous cultural history is certainly central to that history. So, we're an enabler of the vibrant, diverse lives we lead in this city, and that's why we're proud to say we are Toronto's City Airport.

Our passenger community: our families, young professionals, and seniors. They're your neighbours. They love our downtown airport, because it allows them to travel the way they want to—increasingly, in a cleaner, greener, way. And our airport enhances the community, supports the city's economic growth, and is now championed to environmental sustainability. We will be the first airport in the world to have both electric buses and an electric ferry. I mean, how cool is that? In short, our airport's a connector for the great Canadian city's future, of Toronto. It supports community and investment. We will continue with the many stakeholders who share in that vision. Mayor Chow, your vision and dedication in making Toronto a better, more livable space, resonate deeply with our own aspirations. Together, we will forge a path, where Billy Bishop Airport continues to be an engine of opportunity for Toronto and Torontonians, connecting our residents to where they want to be, and connecting our city to a thriving, sustainable future.

So, thank you very much for allowing us to sponsor this event, and allowing me to have a few words. And I would, I'm pleased now to welcome Olivia Chow, Mayor of Toronto, to the podium. Thank you.

Her Worship Olivia Chow, Mayor of Toronto
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for hosting me today. Congratulations to the Empire Club for celebrating its 120th year. This is the anniversary. Congratulations to you.

Now, a couple of weeks ago, my chief of staff got a call from the Department of Foreign Affairs; a director, the top person, a close family member of CK Holdings Limited was in town, and wanted to have dinner. This was curious. CK Infrastructure is parented by Hutchinson Holdings. It belongs to businessman Li Ka Shing, the top billionaire in Hong Kong. And it's a leading player in the global infrastructure arena based in Hong Kong, with 300,000 staff. It has investment in different parts of the world, active in mainland China, Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Continental Europe, and North America. But in Toronto, tiny bit of investment. Why does he want to come and talk to the mayor? It was curious.

It wasn't because of business. Apparently, he heard of—the Li family—heard about this Hong Kong immigrant, me, being elected as the mayor of the fourth-biggest city in North America. So, it was a big deal in Hong Kong. I didn't know that. And they wanted to come and meet with me. Courtesy dinner. I said, okay, what does that tell you? It said that Toronto is a global player, that we have unlimited kind of potential. And for an immigrant kid growing up to be your new mayor, I guess it is a big news for Hong Kong; but it is for Canada. In some ways, that kind of potential that we have in this city, marks us as a global city. But also, it was built, and being built, by the hard work of successive waves of immigrants. Italians, Portuguese, Jewish, Chinese, Irish, you name it—the entire globe, here in Toronto. And you laid the bricks that built the towers. I know that the construction folks are here. You build our subways, you laid the tracks for our streetcars, and the roads, sewers. You came here to build leading businesses that employed thousands, and to enrich our city with your culture. Your hard work is the foundation of our global potential.

And every summer, every weekend, we go out on the street, on Street Festival. It's a taste of everything, of everywhere, right? Taste of Lawrence, Taste of Little Italy, Taste of India Bazaar, and Jamaica. I, you know, I was just at—yeah, Taste of Things. It is really a place where we come together and celebrate, with the inclusion of PRIDE, creativity of TIFF—you feel that energy that we have in this city, just being out on the street in the summer. These festivals cultivate a deep sense of belonging. They celebrate our culture, our heritage, our Toronto. And no other city in the world has this kind of capacity for the unique, harmonious gatherings. And these gatherings, what's amazing, is fostered by volunteers, by ordinary people, who care about our city. That is our competitive advantage. That is why successive waves of immigrants, like my mom and dad, chose Toronto to call it their home and build a new life. It's a very special city. Building a new life. Isn't that the dream of everyone here in this city? A thriving global city. Great services, good infrastructure, a place where a young family can start a new family, a new life. You can attract the best in the world, and come here and work for your company.

But increasingly, that dream, that competitive advantage, our potential to really embrace our global leadership role, is at risk. That potential is held back, because our foundation—our foundation that was built by the hard work of successive Irish, Jewish, Italian, Portuguese, Chinese, you name it, immigrants—in this country is at risk, because we are missing our potential to be the most productive. And just think about your own commute. Okay, yes. We don't need Tom Cruise to tell us we have a traffic problem, right? We don't need Tom Cruise. We don't need to know, and be reminded, that our subways are not always one hundred percent reliable, that street car is sometimes a bit late, that our congestion cost, is costing us, 11 billion a year in lost productivity. Every time I come back from Hong Kong, and use their subway, and come back two ours I go—yes, we're going to get Internet access soon. But my friends in Hong Kong—yeah, about time, isn't it? My relatives say, "We've had it for, like, you know, 15, 20 years in Hong Kong," like, okay, we won't talk about that. When, when people can't find an affordable place to live, they can't live up to their full potential. You can't attract global talent.

And we see the desperation on our streets, in our parks, in the encampments. And people that are fleeing persecution, war, they get here—whether they're Ukrainians, Ugandans, Nigerians, running away from the anti-gay laws—being told there is no room in our shelter system, there is no place for them to start a new life. All this, because Toronto's historic challenge of having other levels of government own up to their fair share.

We all know these challenges aren't new. I remember former Mayor Mel Lastman. Nobody can express it as well as he can—yeah, "Nooobody!" can. He said to the Federal Minister of the time, "Show me the money," he said—I can't do it the way he did it—"Yeah, show me the money, Madam Minister." That was on homelessness and housing. And David Miller, some of you may remember the One Cent Solution. Remember that? Or John Tory's negotiation with the province. Toronto has, time and time again, begged for some crumbs from the federal and provincial government. We don't want to humiliate ourselves, because we are one big city, one proud city, one global city. We don't need to say, "Please step up." And that kind of pleading is not working anyway. And now, here we are. This new mayor, this city, is facing a historic challenge. You've heard this 1.5-billion-dollar budget hole—let's call it what it is: it's a deficit. It's a deficit in our budget that, without urgent action, everything is at risk, including our global reputation. Yes, we are absolutely world-class. But we don't want to beg. It's the difference between better transit, versus chronic congestion; between building new affordable place to live, or people giving up and leaving Toronto; between a caring global city, and telling refugees, each with their dreams and their potential, that there's no room for you. It's time that Toronto is recognized and funded like a thriving global city that it truly is.

And let me tell you a story about Christopher. Christopher, I met. Arrived from Toronto from Uganda. She fled anti-homophobic laws, because of her identity. She heard about Toronto's PRIDE festival. She came halfway across the world, to come to this place of hope, where she can find a new life. It was tough at the beginning. She can't find a place to live. But she worked hard, she built a new life, and she started the new African Centre for Refugees. She wants to give back. And during the times when you saw refugees sleeping on the street, they stepped up. Hundreds of refugees are now living in churches. And she's an example of the global potential this city has. Caring, tenacious, resilient, full of dreams, wanting to care about others, wanting to build a better life. But sadly, with the lack of funding, hundreds of Christopher every night is being turned away from our shelters, because we're absolutely full. With 10,000 homeless people in shelters, folks, in our shelter, half of them, almost half of them, are refugees.

So, what are we gonna do? Who is going to step up? Christopher stepped up. Someone that rose from the streets to serving other people is the best example of who we are as Canadians. And if Christopher can step up, surely all of us can step up. our prime minister can step up, our premier can step up, and we need a new deal for this city of ours. And so that we can get on the global stage with pride, and take our place of hope and potential.

Yes, we know that Toronto drives our economy. We understand our people, we connect with our people almost every day. Like everything, turn on the tap, take the road, call 9 -1-1—well, I hope you don't call 911—but you know, everything is connected. And every, each one of you is a leader in this room. And I look around me. I know the power you have, the influence you have. You can make change happen. You can advocate on behalf of Toronto, coming together with one voice, saying that we need a better deal. We need our other levels of government to step up, a new funding source that can grow with our economy. We need you. Because we are always stronger together.

Now, speaking about stronger together, you're wondering, how does this, Mr. John Baird and Olivia Chow—such an odd couple—come together? Yes, it is odd, isn't it? Back to that dinner that I had with the Li family, Li Ka Shing family. I thought, hmm, I'm invited to Empire Club to speak. Who would be a good partner for me to speak with? Because I always believe in a conversation. So, I text John Baird. John Baird and I did some work together—he did the work, actually; I just pushed. I said, "This beautiful river, called Nahanni River, needs to be protected." Minister Baird, at the time, was the environment minister. And he said, "Yep. Let me do this." Sure enough, speed, he got it done, and Nahanni headwater was protected. And I deeply admire someone that can get things done quickly, no nonsense, get on with it, get it done, kind of minister. So, I text Mr. Baird, and I said, "John, you know, this is the Empire Club. What do you think?" He said, "I'm in Hong Kong." Ohh, uhm. I said, "I'm just having dinner, finishing dinner with Li Ka Shing family member, the uncle of the eldest son." And he said, "Well, funny. I'm working with the second son, it's the same CK Holdings." Like, this world is not very big; we're very global. I said, "Well, perfect. Let's come together. Let's talk about how we can create a new future for Canadians, as cities in this global context."

I want to thank you all for being here today. It's the start of a conversation, it's the start of our work together. Join me in welcoming former Minister John Baird, in having a conversation with me about this new future.

The Honourable John Baird, Senior Advisor, Bennett Jones LLP
Well, we are the political odd couple, aren't we? It's so funny. When we were in Ottawa, we were adversaries. I'm a Conservative, you're a Social Democrat. I endorsed another candidate for mayor. I think bike lanes are adding to congestion...

H.W. Olivia Chow
Gasp!

The Hon. John Baird
...and I'm concerned about crime and, and homelessness. But I think, like every single person in this room, I want to see this city succeed. And the city can't succeed unless you succeed. And it's not enough to say, "Let's wait for the next election." We want to work hard together, to ensure that the city does succeed. So, let's maybe, as a bit of a scene setter, let's start with the, the big issue. You mentioned it in your speech. City Hall is facing some pretty huge financial problems. Where is the city at now? What's the state of affairs?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Well, we're at a big deficit, you heard about that. We are coming together. There's—every councillors are saying that we need a better deal, every councillors are saying that we have to work together, and council just approved a long-term financial plan. Because we're facing this crisis, financial crisis, head on. We're not running away from it; we're saying we need to do something. And how are we going to do that? We're looking at everything, any kind of revenue tool under the sun.

The Hon. John Baird
What's the size of the, what's the size of the, the hole you're in this year? And we're already, you know, just about to enter the fourth quarter. What's the size of the hole you're, you're dealing with, just this year?

H.W. Olivia Chow
The hole is 1.5. But we are, at this stage, probably at 500 million, because it's last quarter. And, well, actually, the hole is growing because of the refugees. We are now short 200 million dollars, because of the shelters that we have. So, in every piece of it, whether it is transit, we don't have enough money to purchase that new subway car that we need on Bloor. The federal government worked with us; we were able to purchase new subway cars on the Yonge Line, but not on the Bloor Line. That was 10,15 years ago. So, things are falling apart a bit.

The Hon. John Baird
And to put it into perspective, Toronto, the city of less than three million people, it represents 21 percent of the GDP of Canada...

H.W. Olivia Chow
M'hm (affirmative).

The Hon. John Baird
...and 53 percent of the GDP of Ontario. So, it is a key economic driver.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yep. And our budget is larger than 7 provinces; 60 billion dollars—60 billion in gross dollars, capital and operating—is huge. So, when we have traffic congestion, the world notice—Tom Cruise being one of them, unfortunately—but yeah, it is hurting our productivity. And when people don't have enough money to, at the end of the month to go shopping or eat out, it hurts small businesses, right? So, that's one of the reasons why our productivity rate is not very high.

The Hon. John Baird
There was some discussion in the recent mayoral race about doing a spending review.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yep.

The Hon. John Baird
Before you look for more money to look at, could you spend less? Tell me about that.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yeah, we're doing an audit. The province is doing an audit with us. And it will be done in November. I am very confident that we will come up with a flying colour. Because quite a few years ago we engaged KPMG, actually—some of you would know that company, yes—to do a core service review, and this time it's Ernst & Young, EY, doing the audit. So, every time, coming out of it we, we are—people, they all agree, we're doing well, in terms of our, what we do in terms of our core business. It's just that we don't have the revenue source to, to deal with all the things. Because it used to be transit—or, or let's use shelter. The provincial government used to pay 90 percent of it, the City of Toronto paid 10 percent. Okay? Now City of Toronto's paying....

The Hon. John Baird
From Mike Harris, the good old days.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Oh. Well—yes, it was the good old days. It was 90/10 at that time. And it's now 50 percent city of Toronto. Things get downloaded more and more and more.

The Hon. John Baird
But Premier Ford has asked, encouraged city council to look for efficiencies, to save money. Do you not think you'd strengthen your hand by asking in, in asking for additional amount of money from other levels of government by saying, "Listen, this is what we've identified, or here are things that are a low priority, or here are things that were priority of previous mayors"—you're a new mayor, you have your own priorities—would you not strengthen your hand by, by doing that?

H.W. Olivia Chow
I could put out a priority list. You will see it. Because we are about to go into a budget process, okay? Unlike previous years, I'm going to open up all the budget books. Open data. We're going to ask the residents of Toronto, what is your priority? Do you want us to sell the golf courses? Do you want us to sell the long-term care homes? But there's a long wait list for long-term care. Do you want us to stop feeding children in school? No. So, we're going to ask folks what is their priority. Do you want us to spend less on policing? Because every hundred dollar of tax you pay, property tax, forty dollars of it goes to pay—forty-five—goes to pay police. Do you want us to pay less, or pay more? We will go through that budget exercise, which we do every year anyway.

The Hon. John Baird
You could put a moratorium on new bike lanes.

H.W. Olivia Chow
That will save you five pennies, John.

The Hon. John Baird
Let's talk about refugees.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yeah.

The Hon. John Baird
You mentioned that. It's, I think we're very blessed in this country. Whether it's Jagmeet Singh, whether it's Justin Trudeau, whether it's Pierre Pollievre, there is a lot of support for immigration, and a lot of goodwill to, to support people fleeing, whether it's the anti-gay laws in in Uganda, whether it's the war in Ukraine. And it's not a debate that we're having about, about, if it's immigration or refugee, supporting refugees, good or bad. It's just not a political debate. But it is really fantastic that the federal government is welcoming all these refugees—often doing photo-ops to welcome them at the airport—but isn't it almost like inviting people over for dinner, and sticking City Hall with the bill?

H.W. Olivia Chow
I think I can use this as a speaking point. Okay, I think I might use that. Yes, it's actually quite tragic if it's not so absurd. Because you arrive, you don't know where to go, you don't have a lot of money—or else you wouldn't be refugees—and you don't know where to stay, even that night, or two nights later. You may have enough money for one night of hotel at most. Then where do you go? You show up in downtown Toronto. You heard about this centre that city has, a shelter centre. We do have—and then they say to you, there's no room. Right? Because we already have 10,000 people in shelters. Shelters supposed to be temporary, right? Now, it's becoming a bit of a housing, unfortunately. So, people are stuck. They're not getting out of shelter fast enough, and when we don't have enough shelters. During the COVID time, because the hotel rooms are mostly empty, we were able to rent some with low-dollar amount. Now, it's hugely expensive. So, right now, if we rent a hotel room, it's 250 dollars-a night, plus 50 dollars from Red Cross to try to feed someone; it's 300 dollars a night. It makes no sense. And the more urgent it is, the more expensive it becomes, the more absurd it is. So, we really do need to plan properly. Not just with the City of Toronto; it needs to be the federal government and the provincial government coming together and say, okay, what do we do?

The Hon. John Baird
The federal government's the one responsible for, for immigration and refugees. You know, when I was—I first got to know the mayor when I was minister of community social services. And I strongly believe that if refugees and immigration was a federal responsibility, it should logically extend that, if the federal government is going to welcome and invite, they should, you know, pick up the tab. And I think there's an area where I think there could be great support from Ottawa to, to provide, provide help for the City of Toronto.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yeah. Right now, we're paying, as I said, most of the bills. Absolutely, we could do a lot better. But in each of the area, there needs to be negotiation. Or what we could do is just, rather than department by department, let's have a comprehensive overview, and say in each of the area, how much do we need, and how do we come together? Because it's all interconnected.

The Hon. John Baird
And the other challenge is, with refugees, there's little effort being made to allocate them equitably across the country. You know, people, when they come to Canada, they come to, they come to the Greater Toronto Area...

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yep.

The Hon. John Baird
...and even who people come to other parts of Canada, then move to the Greater Toronto Area. So, it does, it does leave you picking the, holding the, holding the tab.

H.W. Olivia Chow
And by the way, winter is coming.

The Hon. John Baird
Yes.

H.W. Olivia Chow
And, and it's just, I'm quite anxious and worried that already, we're turning 250 people a night from, away from our shelter. They're, they're sleeping in tents, and sleeping everywhere. And by law, we can't take people away from the, the parks, unless there's a place for them to go. We can't get them to a place to go because everything is full.

The Hon. John Baird
I mean, the advertisement for today's lunch, "A New Future for Canadian Cities." Let me just ask you right, flat out. Is there a parochial view of cities and Confederation? Talk about what do you think the new relationship has got to be. You alluded it in your speech.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Well, when the Constitution was built, people weren't living, there was this city of, there was such a small town. And things have changed so much around the world. In every great city, metropolis around the world—whether you're talking about Rome, or New York, anywhere—they have different forms of revenue that grow with the economy. And this conversation that I, we, you and I are having, are at least 20 years old. And round-and-round it's gone, and yet it hasn't quite landed. There's usually one-time bailout, one-time deal, but it just hadn't really solved the root of the problem. And it's an old way, very backward ways. And things have changed, of looking at which levels of government are responsible for what. And it, you know, when you talk about different levels of government responsibility, people's eyes glaze over. They don't care. It's one taxpayer, right? And...

The Hon. John Baird
I love it when she talks like that.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Okay, I know, I know. I was hanging around you too much, John. No. t is true—except property tax. It does, it's not really the, your ability to pay. And if you raise too much of the property tax then people lose their homes, then it just creates more of a crisis. So, we need to figure out a way that we could work together.

The Hon. John Baird
A few more issues. Have you heard from Premier Ford?

H.W. Olivia Chow
We're meeting next week.

The Hon. John Baird
Have you met with him yet, though?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yes, we have talked about—yes, we have met, and we've talked about different challenges, and he's thinking about things. And yeah, we, we're working together.

The Hon. John Baird
What about the federal government? We've got the, we have....

H.W. Olivia Chow
Now, Premier Ford has a surplus of—ahem—20 billion dollars. So, having just one cent of that HST will keep us very happy. One cent of the sales tax. We don't need to levy it ourselves. We'd rather not, right? So, share one cent. Whether it's GST, HST, Sales Tax—we don't care what it is. Think of the money that TIFF is bringing in, think of the money PRIDE brings in, Caribana, you name it.

The Hon. John Baird
What about the federal government? We have 25 government MPs for three terms in a row. Have you heard from, have you heard from Toronto's Members of Parliament?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yes, we have. In fact, yesterday we had a press conference; eight or nine of them were here, as the minister of industry finally said, "Okay, let's have internet access in TTC." [Applause] Yes, yes! It's, it's a good thing. About time. Yeah. So, I have heard, I, I just met with the minister of immigration, I plead my case about refugees. And they're thinking about it.

The Hon. John Baird
That sounds courageous.

H.W. Olivia Chow
If you can help them, if, if folks here can help them "think about it" a bit more and then act, that would be marvellous.

The Hon. John Baird
Well, I can, I can tell you that when I was the minister of infrastructure, we had zero MPs in the city of Toronto, and I made sure that Toronto got its fair share.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Thank you. I—yes. I was an MP at the time. I was in, we called it a....

The Hon. John Baird
You were my critic, I remember.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Yes, I was. I was....

The Hon. John Baird
I have the, I have the scars to show it.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Hey, but your infrastructure dollar at the time, we were able to expand the AGO with the Frank Gehry building, ROM has Daniel Libeskind's building, Roy Thompson Hall, OCAD, you name it. The infrastructure funds....

The Hon. John Baird
Maple Leaf Gardens.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Thank you. The, the funds came in to Toronto. And the thing is that we need that kind of infrastructure funds. There's a new infrastructure funds coming in from the federal government. Hopefully they would—actually, they're planning it right now, we haven't seen it yet—we're hoping that it would be per capita.

The Hon. John Baird
Yeah. This is, this is one of the issues that Mayor Chow and I talked about. Mayor Chow got up one day in question period and said that she wanted public funding for, dedicated funding for public transit based on transit ridership, which would have given her the majority of the federal money. And I said to her that the, the Member of Parliament for Nunavut would have wanted it per square kilometer. But this is....

H.W. Olivia Chow
I think we got it for—there, there were different gas tax. Most of it is per capita, but we got some for ridership. That's how we got the Yonge subway cars.

The Hon. John Baird
There are two, though. There are two ways of doing it. One is, I think everyone supports equalization. But when there's an equalization element to every program, it means that Toronto, Ontario, with 38 percent of the population, only gets about 30 percent of the infrastructure dollars. So, there is more money there without spending any more. Just making sure that it's equitably distributed.

H.W. Olivia Chow
This should be a plot line—applause line, no? [Applause] Yes, it is. It should be, at least, per capita, if not per ridership too, eh? Or transit funding.

The Hon. John Baird
Great.

H.W. Olivia Chow
And, and the federal government promised three billion dollars of transit funds, except it won't start flowing 'til 2026.

The Hon. John Baird
That's after the next election. That's very convenient. Listen....

H.W. Olivia Chow
It's only, you know, former politician, the former minister that remember when's the next election.

[QUESTION & ANSWER]

The Hon. John Baird
There you are. Listen, I've got we got some questions from the floor. Can we go over some of them? We talked about some of them already. How can we actively implement urban infrastructure plans built with a bias for action to reach the innovative level?

H.W. Olivia Chow
How do we....

The Hon. John Baird
How do we actively implement urban infrastructure plans built with a bias for action to reach the innovation level?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Innovation level. Well....

The Hon. John Baird
Of, of global cities like Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Right. All of them have a different kind of funding formula with their, with their local residents. We absolutely could. We are not lacking in innovation, on creativity, and imagination. We could have the best green infrastructure. We, we could do it. We could be just as beautiful, magnificent. If we go out and do procurement, and say, rather than the lowest bidder—which we want to see—but having one of the criterias being that it also needs to be spectacularly beautiful, like that, or the most green, and environmentally sound. So, we could put those as procurement conditions, and then also benefit locally, so it's a local economic benefit. So, we could absolutely do that, if we the funds to actually do the procurement. Right now, we, there, we have a backlog of billions of dollars, as you can tell from the potholes you witnessed on the street. We're having difficulty just keeping things in a state of good repair.

The Hon. John Baird
Those, those potholes, make it very, very dangerous for, for cyclists.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Terrible for bike lanes. Yes, I know it. Yes, cyclists could lose their life. If their, if the....

The Hon. John Baird
Next question. The Greater Toronto Hamilton Area represents 15 to 20 percent of all Canadians. What will it take to get Torontonians to stand together and advocate for our needs the same way that other regions do, like Québec, like the Maritimes?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Excellent question. We have a big city mayor of Ontario, this is a caucus, and there's association called Association for Municipalities in Ontario—I see some councillors here, and they are very active. I see Councillor Shelley Carroll our Budget Chief here. She is—you were at the AMO conference just two weeks ago. We are actively working together. What I'm saying today to you is echoed throughout the GTA, throughout the entire region. I'm not alone. And the needs are spectacularly similar.

The Hon. John Baird
This is really one big challenge that Ontario is incredibly disadvantaged on. People from Québec see themselves as Québecers first. The, the attachment to the province, if you're from Nova Scotia, if you're from Prince Edward Island, is significant; obviously, Alberta has an Alberta-first agenda. But whereas people in Ontario and the Toronto area think of themselves as Canadians first, and don't have the same mentality to operate it like a pack, and to advocate for their needs.

H.W. Olivia Chow
John, don't you think that we need to have this, not just national pride—proud to be, this great city, a Torontonian?

The Hon. John Baird
Listen, I am so proud to live in Toronto. Toronto is definitely the second-best city in Canada, right after Nepean, Ontario.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Especially if we get rid of those bike lanes, right?

The Hon. John Baird
How does Toronto's labour market need to change to meet the city's challenges?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Well, the labour market, whoa. We need to help our young people. It's hard for them—well, the labour market works, if they could get there on time, we, if we could actually attract top talents. Increasingly, I'm hearing companies saying that is very difficult to attract, to attract top talents, especially if people have to travel a long distance. And the housing costs being so expensive, that is difficult to, for people, especially young people, to find a home in Toronto. I came from Hong Kong when I was 13. The British Government of the time, what they did was, in the 70's and 80's, they created, 60's, 70's—because they had all these refugees from China arriving to Hong Kong—what they did was they massively built huge number of housing. And housing wasn't just for the poor people; it was for the middle class, it was for all public civil servants. So, my dad, being a school superintendent, had fairly high income, middle class, lived in a very nice apartment owned by the government. But when we left—because we immigrated—we were able to, to sell the share care of, of that house, of that apartment, back to the Hong Kong Housing Authority. So, it's a part ownership, part, it's a public kind of model, which worked really well. And Hong Kong at the time, because the housing cost was under control, you saw the rise of the middle class. They had extra money left. They were out there buying, and shopping, and eating.

The Hon. John Baird
I can't—you're just walk, you're just walking right into this question. I love Hong Kong. I travel there about four times a year. When you asked me to do this, I was actually working in Hong Kong that week. The thing I love most about Hong Kong? Top marginal tax rate of 15.5 percent.

H.W. Olivia Chow
I knew you were gonna say that...

The Hon. John Baird
You walked right into it, Mayor.

H.W. Olivia Chow
...that flat tax, yes. Well, the reason why immigrants come from Hong Kong is because we have the freedom and democracy here, and we have public healthcare, and good education, ahem.

The Hon. John Baird
Last question—well, that was good, you gave as good as you got—question from Beverly: tenants make up more than half of the city, and yet they are often absent from citywide debates. What's the role for tenants' rights in your vision of a new future for Canadian cities?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Well, yes, if 50 percent-plus of our folks in Toronto live in renting, and we are creating, in the City of Toronto, a Renters Committee, a team that they could have their voice at City Hall. But not just at City Hall; we can do advocacy together to other levels of government.

The Hon. John Baird
Great. I'll, I think we're gonna wrap things up. Let me give you an open-ended question. You're fighting for a new, a new deal for Canadian cities. You want to change the way of the past. What could everyone in this room do—whether they agree with part of you or all of you—what can they do as Toronto's, as advocates for, for your vision to make Toronto successful, to let Toronto succeed?

H.W. Olivia Chow
Well, three things. Number one, have a conversation with your friends, and families, and your coworkers. Come to an agreement of what we need, okay? And, and talk about the kind of financial situation. And feel proud of this city. Because every aspect of all our lives are connected with city services. Number two, bring your coworkers and friends together. And number three, call up your local Member of Parliament or—well in Toronto, they're all, some of them are in the cabinet—or your, and your local Provincial Member of Parliament. Go and visit them with your coworkers and your friends, because—have a dialogue, have a conversation about what will work better for the City of Toronto. Use any examples. Think about your life. What bother you most? Is it the, is it the potholes? Is it the TTC not arriving on time? Is it the, the, the folks that are camping out right now, because they have no homes? Is it the housing costs too much? All of that is connected to the city, right? Pick a matter, an issue, that actually matter to you most, and have it, connect with the city service—and I'll guarantee you, it will connect with city service—and then say to your friends, and your families, and your coworkers, and to the MP, an elected representatives that represent you that, "Hey, we need to do better. What is your solution?" I think that would be perfect.

The Hon. John Baird
Well, thank you. Good to be with you. Good to have you as your first major address, as the Mayor of Toronto. And I think on behalf of all of us, we wish you well, we wish you success, we wish the city success. We want to see a Toronto that's booming, we want to see Toronto as a magnet for jobs, investment, and opportunity, with a great quality of, of life. So, thank you so much for doing this.

H.W. Olivia Chow
Thank you, John.

Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
Thank you. Thank you very much, John Baird and Mayor Olivia Chow. Thank you again to Billy Bishop, Toronto City Airport, and all our sponsors for their support, and everyone joining us today, and for those of you online. As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on our website. The recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an e-mail with the link. Thanks again for joining us today. We invite you to stay, and join us for continued networking. Have a great afternoon. This meeting is now adjourned.