Economic Update: the State of Labour Relations and What It All Means for Business

November 30, 2023

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Economic Update: the State of Labour Relations and What It All Means for Business

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Marc Arsenault, Business Manager, Provincial Building and Trades Council of Ontario
The Honourable Seamus O'Regan Jr. , Minister of Labour and Minister of Seniors, Government of Canada
Joseph Mancinelli, International Vice-President, and Canadian Director, LiUNA

Head Table Guests
Rhonda Barnet, CEO, Palette Skill, Palette Skills
Nathalie Gahimbare, Chief of Staff, Protexxa
Kent Emerson, Strategic Lead, Empire Club of Canada
Awanish Sinha, Parter Co-Lead | Public Sector, McCarthy Tétrault

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Empire Club of Canada. The go-to forum for conversations that matter for Canadians, and for our country. My name is Sal Rabbani, and it's indeed an honour to stand before our community, both in-person and virtually, as Chair of the Board of Directors.

To formally begin this afternoon, I want to acknowledge that we're gathering today on the Traditional and Treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, and the homelands of the Anishinaabeg, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples. We encourage everyone to learn more about the Traditional Territory on which you work and live.

It is our pleasure and honour to welcome today the Honourable Seamus O'Regan Jr., Canada's Minister of Labour, and Minister for Seniors. Welcome, Minister, and thank you for being with us.

Our mandate at the Empire Club is to engage and advance the dialogue on what matters most to Canadians. We just celebrated 120 years of the Empire Club last week—in fact, in this room. When we were founded in the early 20th century, we were looking at a rise of the labour movement and unions, while workers were facing extremely harsh working conditions, and very limited rights. We've come a long way, 12 decades later, in Canada, yet things are far from perfect. While better than 120 years ago, they're also more complex. From movie sets to ports, labour disputes are rising. Workers are making their voices heard loud and clear. Rising inflation, automation, the shift towards renewable energy, labour shortages. These are just a few of the elements that are reshaping jobs and industries as a whole. They're redefining how we work, how we train our people, how we pay our people, job security and transition. What we live today is pivotal, and the way we act will define the dynamics of labour relations for many years to come.

Of the many fundamentals defining labour relations, you name it, fair treatment and equality, workers rights to unionize, safe working conditions, protection against unfair practices. One of the most important—and also the messiest, I think—is the part that relates to communication and conflict resolution. Healthy labour relations and healthy workplaces are defined by open and transparent communication, active listening, respect, and creating a working culture where the rules of the game are clear, and clearly communicated to everyone. We look forward to hearing from the Minister on best practices, what he's seeing in the market, the do's and don'ts, and what needs to be done further, to advance respectful and mutually beneficial communication on Labour Relations in Canada.

You know, labour relations are complicated. We're seeing it these days, with discussions in the media, and just the news over the past few weeks has been the bill on collective bargaining, and also called the "anti-scab legislation". It's my understanding that Bill C58 aims to prohibit the use of substitute workers, or scabs, in federally regulated workplaces, including airports, banks, ports, and the telecom sector, during strikes or lockouts. We are really privileged to have the Minister here to give us all the details and the updates on this important piece of legislation for both employees and employers.

Now, a bit of housekeeping. The Empire Club is a not-for-profit organization, and we'd like to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the club, and make these events possible and complimentary. Thank you to our Lead Event Sponsors, Bruce Power, and LiUNA; our VIP Reception Sponsor, Palette Skills; and our Supporting Sponsor, the Provincial Building Trades and Construction Council of Ontario; and our Season Sponsors, AWS, Amazon Web Services, Bruce Power, and Hydro One.

And I'd also like to take pause to welcome and thank the emerging leaders we have in the room today, attending from Humber College, and CW Jefferys Collegiate Institute. Thanks for being here, guys.

We're accepting questions from the audience for our speakers, you can undertake to scan that QR code on your program booklet. For those joining us online today, if you require technical assistance, please start a conversation with our team using the chat button on the right-hand side of your screen.

It is now my pleasure to invite Marc Arsenault, Business Manager for the Provincial Building and Trades Council of Ontario, on behalf of Bruce Power, to introduce our guest speaker.

Opening Remarks by Marc Arsenault, Business Manager, Provincial Building and Trades Council of Ontario
Good afternoon, and thank you, Sal, for those kind comments. The people represented by the Building Trades Council take great pride in not only building the infrastructure that our economy depends on, but the quality and craftsmanship of their work. As a member of the Iron Workers, I can tell you that it is with great pride that we see landmarks that we've built with our brothers and sisters in the building trades. Every single bridge, hospital, industrial plant, or high-rise, brings back memories among tradespeople who helped build them. The growth and development of our workforce is based on an earn-while-you-learn model of apprenticeship. The training and knowledge transfer from journeyperson to apprentice has, and continues to pave the way for the next generation of construction trades professionals, to hone their skills in building our province and our country.

The success of our industry depends on strong partnerships that we've established with our owner and employer community, such as Bruce Power. These partnerships have endured many changes and pressures over the years, but the basic commitment to delivering projects on time, on budget, and most importantly, safely, has endured. So, too, has our desire to collaborate with government. And our keynote speaker today is always eager to meet with trades workers to visit our training centres, to sit down and speak with apprentices and labour leaders, to better understand the unique career opportunities in the trades, and to help to showcase those opportunities to all Canadians.

It is my honour to introduce our keynote speaker. He needs little introduction to most in this room, but I would like to say that he has been a strong advocate for elevating and educating the broader public on the opportunities that exist for all Canadians to consider a career in the skilled trades. He understands that the trades offer a safe, long, and prosperous career, and that skilled tradespeople are a key piece of Canada's economic success. He is also leading the charge, in helping to diversify our industry to attract more Indigenous Peoples, women, new Canadians, youth, veterans, and others from equity-deserving communities. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming the Minister of Labour and Minister of Seniors, the Honourable Seamus O'Regan.

The Honourable Seamus O'Regan Jr., Minister of Labour and Minister of Seniors, Government of Canada
Thank you, Marc. Thank you, Sal. Et merci tout le monde [Remarks in French]. First of all, I just have to make the remark that I think in the 120-year history of the Empire Club, they probably did not think back then that there would be a guy named Sal Rabbani who would be the two-time serving Chair of the Board of Directors. I don't even know 120 years ago if they would have let an Arsenault in—but I can tell you for sure they wouldn't have let an O'Regan be the speaker. So, we've all come a long way. I want to thank the Empire Club for putting all this together. Everyone in this room has a lot of things to do, I know, and an inbox that just won't quit, so—for 120 years, though, this place has recognized the importance of thoughtful discussion and debate. It has recognized that public policy, like this country, is often the result of compromise. So, thank you for including me in this tradition, and thank you for being here. Thank you for your patriotism. That's, you know, when I say patriotism, that's, that's your interest, your investment in our country, and in the big challenges that Canada is confronting. Your patriotism matters.

So, I stand here before you, happy to report that the fundamentals of our economy are strong. Last week, the finance minister tabled the government's Fall Economic Statement. Our government is projected to grow faster than the US, France, UK, Japan, faster than all of them, in 2024. Our unemployment rate remains at a historic low of 5.7 percent, we have the lowest deficit and debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7, we have the fastest job recovery in the G7—over a million more Canadians are working now, than they were before the pandemic—we are third in the world for foreign direct investment, and we are projected to have the strongest economic growth in the G7 in 2024, according to the IMF.

I can say all that, and it has the benefit of being true. The problem is, no one's feeling it. Because people don't live in the G7. Your local bank branch isn't the IMF. Likely, you live in a house, or a condo, or an apartment, with rent that has been going up, or a mortgage renewal that's looming. But my God, we have just come out of a global pandemic. And our economy may be past it, but we're not. We're not. We're tired, we're thin skinned, we're anxious. It's all fertile ground for people in powerful positions, who want to make people more anxious and angry about the world, people who want to rile people up, who want to provoke, who want to prod, who want to affirm the rage. I don't know about you, but I'm tired, already, of populism. It's exhausting. It's reckless, too. It demonizes, it destabilizes, it takes energy away from the things that we really should be doing. And it seeks out common enemies, when in fact, what we should be doing is finding common cause.

So, I was invited here to talk about the bargaining table. And we seem to be seeing more heated labour disputes, more lockouts, more strikes, and it's natural to ask why. Negotiations don't happen in a vacuum. When employers and workers come to the bargaining table, they bring with them all the pressures, and the uncertainties, and the aspirations of the world around them. They're human beings. Workers are anxious. They're anxious about automation, about the cost of living, about a changing labour market, where their skills may not be needed next year. Employers are anxious, too. They're facing the tightest labour market in generations, the bar for what is considered to be a good boss keeps going up, and they've got to compete with some countries who are still in a race to the bottom.

People need stability. The government should be a force for stability. That's our job. For workers, for employers, for investors. Stability means that people need to know where they're headed. That they have the confidence in the future, and they know that they have some say in that future. Stability means workers go to sleep at night knowing that they'll have a job the next day, the next year—maybe not the same job, but assuredly, a good job. Stability means employers know when to build, and that they have confidence in the rules and the regulations around it to know that they can build. Stability means investors have confidence in the economy and in their investments. Stability is a sought-after commodity these days. Because we are living in a critical moment.

The energy transition to renewables and to lower emissions, that transition's here. Right now. Right now, companies are deciding where to invest and where to build. We can't talk about labour relations, about workers' anxiety, about any of it, without talking about the energy transition. It is the single biggest challenge and opportunity of our time. I call it our national mission. And Canada is not new to it. We're not playing catch-up; we've been building this industry for years. As a percentage of our 2022 GDP, Canada is nearly tied with the US for every dollar invested in the clean economy, and we've blown by the European Union. But to sustain that growth, we need to provide stability and confidence, for workers, for employers, for investors, so Canada can be the world leader in clean energy.

So, where do you begin? You begin by listening. Listening to workers, listening to employers, listening to investors. You listen, you take advice, you act. That is the only way to do big things in a big country like ours. And if you don't do that hard work, you leave people as they are. Anxious, anxious about the future. And when people are anxious, they cling to the familiar. It's natural. What's familiar today may very well be obsolete tomorrow, though. But there's one thing that workers need to hear from us: that there will be good jobs that they can count on.

Our industrial policy is not running away from workers. Our industrial policy goes hand-in-hand with workers because we've tied it to labour standards. Last year, we announced five new clean tax credits. We're investing $85 billion over the next decade in tax credits for carbon capture, utilization, and storage, CCUS, clean tech adoption, clean hydrogen, clean technology manufacturing, and clean electricity. And to get the full benefit, you have to hire union workers or pay workers a prevailing union wage. That is a game changer. That is a game changer. Canada's clean energy industry will be built by workers with good jobs. Good jobs they can count on.

I know industry is impatient to have those tax credits in place. In the Fall Economic Statement, Minister Freeland announced a detailed timeline for consultations, and for implementation for each of those tax credits. The legislation is going to be tabled in the fall of 2024—and two of the credits, though, are already in force because they're going to be retroactive. For $85 billion in investments, I would argue this is actually an aggressive pace. So, if your business wants to build a project, now you can go to your board and say look, this is when it needs to be ready, this is when we can apply for those credits, and this is when we can expect the return.

Investors need to have that confidence. Those ITC's, I would say, they are an example where I think we are hitting the mark in allaying the concerns of workers, employers, and investors alike, building confidence. Building confidence wherever we can find it. Because I don't think any of us are over COVID. I don't think any of us are over COVID. I don't think we've dealt with it. As a country, as a world, we've just moved on. We're busy, you know, we got things to do, we got bills to pay, we have families to care for, life carries on. But we've been jarred. We've changed. And as a result, as we say in Newfoundland, "The nerves are rub raw." Our nerves are rub raw. We're reeling in the wake of a global pandemic. We have a war raging in Europe, we have the Middle East on the precipice, we have a climate crisis, we have a suddenly aging population. So, I understand when no one's feeling it, feeling the most remarkable economic recovery I could imagine for a country of people who just spent years in varying degrees of isolation, socially distancing, afraid of one another. If you told me in my 14th Zoom call of the day, in the 14th month of my isolation, running the Department of Natural Resources at home, alone, with my husband, that this country would not just recover from the ravages of a global pandemic, but would lead the world in job growth, not just recovering all those lost jobs, but adding hundreds of thousands more, I would never believe you.

Picture yourself back then. You wouldn't believe it. We did that. All of us as a country, we did that. And we can't forget that. We, we can't just move on. We will not understand this perpetual angst that we find ourselves in, if we don't remember what we have been through. And more importantly, we will not be able to tackle the massive challenges that confront us unless we remember what we did. What we, all of us, together, what we did. We need to remember patriotism, we need to celebrate it, like you do here. Not, not flag-waving and anthems, but deeds. What we did. Canada is a country that rallies. We come together in hours of need, in hours of loss, in hours of joy. Our patriotism is defined by our willingness to stand by each other and rise together. We define ourselves by the good that we do, not the noise that we make. COVID may have shaken us, and we may still be dealing with it, but we did better than anyone coming out of it. Anyone. We proved our mettle. We chose to look after one another. We chose to believe in one another. And it's time to believe again in the resilience and skill of our workers, in the ability of employers and industry to find common cause, and show the world what we can do. It's time to believe in investors, who know to their bones the inherent and limitless opportunity of this great country. It's time to believe in ourselves again. It's time to believe in Canada. Merci beaucoup. Thank you.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you very much for your remarks.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
I don't know what the questions will be, in case anybody's wondering,

Sal Rabbani
We've got some questions coming in to us, as well. Minister, thank you very much for taking the time to be here today. You know, you touched on this in your remarks, Canadians are anxious.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
Yeah.

Sal Rabbani
And, you know, your government recently delivered this economic statement. And I noted a big focus on housing and banking. You know, if you were to reflect on it, what's the message that you'd like to send Canadians with this update, yourself?

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
That we see and feel exactly what they're going through. If you're a smart Member of Parliament who likes his job—and I do, and I've been elected, re-elected twice—I listened to people who elected me. That sounds so basic; it is true. And so, if you're close to people, you understand. I think interest rates right now are such a concern to people. It affects people who rent because they see their rents go up. It affects people on variable rates, you know, like myself. It affects people who have, who may have a mortgage looming, right? So, you've got to tell them, look, we've got your backs. First of all, we're going to—we really want to build up the housing stock. And we need people to understand that, you know, it doesn't happen overnight—Joe Mancinelli from LiUNA knows that, we were just talking—I mean, we could put these things in place; we still have a skilled labour shortage in this country. And these things will take time.

But you know, I think it's very important to signal to people that we are on the right track. And I think, you know, cutting the GST was really important. I think $25 billion towards apartment construction, affordable apartment construction, I think is really important. And I'm seeing it. You know, right now Sean Fraser is negotiating with two of municipalities in my riding, St. John's, and Mount Pearl. Municipalities are beginning to feel it. So, I think it's really important that you meet people where they are. You do what you can to increase competition in groceries—people are feeling that. Meet people where they are. That is what, you know—you spend enough time in Ottawa, you learn about this legendary "Ottawa Bubble". It exists, very much. It's why I go home on weekends. Not just 'cause I love St. John's, but also, that's where people will stop me in the Costco and tell me whether we're on the right track or not. And that's who we were listening to.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you. You know, you know, I want to build on this theme of stability that you talked about. In the current political climate, you know...

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
Say it.

Sal Rabbani
...it seems almost impossible. You know, consider the clean energy industry, you know, how can your government create stability and confidence, with so many opposing forces across the country?

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
I don't think that they're as opposing as you may think. You know, when I became Natural Resources Minister—you have to remember, it was 2019—the Liberals were completely thrown out of Alberta and Saskatchewan. We lost Sohi and Ralph Goodale, you know, titans, really. And that was jarring. And we weren't treating the oil industry with the respect that it deserves—because regardless of what you think of oil, it is the biggest single driver in the Canadian economy, in the entire economy. It's responsible for a large portion of our emissions, there's no question—it's up there with car use, transportation, generally—but you're not going to be able to tackle this if you talk down to people.

The workers in our energy industry, who predominantly live in Alberta, and Saskatchewan, and in Newfoundland and Labrador, where, in actual fact, we rely more on oil and gas revenues, Newfoundland, than Alberta does. So, I've got skin in this game; I gotta—these are my neighbours, these are my friends, these are people who I know. They don't like being talked down to. Nobody likes being talked down to. And the workers in our energy industry are exactly the people who will do the work. When we talk about lowering emissions, and we talk about building up renewables, who's doing it? And if you don't have them onside, and they don't want to do the work—which is one of the reasons why our ITC is so focused on making sure that the wages are good, because a lot of renewable companies don't pay all that well, and don't like union workers. And I need people in those industries to lower the emissions we need to lower. So, workers are the key to all of this.

And, and just to make a long answer longer—but it's good story—I became Natural Resources Minister because I was an MP from an oil-producing province. And I had just been sworn in, and hadn't yet appeared in front of Rideau Hall, in front of the press, when I got a text from the Alberta Energy Minister—a mutual friend had given her my number—Sonya Savage. And Sonya texted me and said "Congratulations, Minister. When you come to Alberta?" I texted back right away, "How's tomorrow?" I didn't ask for permission, I went anyway. And that relationship has become a friendship. Sonya and I went on, I think, to do some really good things together.

This industry, the energy industry in this country, don't let the song and dance fool you. There are people who work very hard behind the scenes to make it work, because it is far too important to this country. And let me just say this, you know, and this is the position I take, in order to shore up the support for workers that we need, and remembering how closely workers in the energy industry identify with that industry—they named a hockey team, the Edmonton Oilers; they identify with this industry. So, you gotta treat them with respect, and you gotta, you gotta meet them where they are, right? You have to. That's really important. And so, I spent a lot of time in Alberta, I spent a lot of time in Saskatchewan—I still do—and I spend a lot of time home.

And if I could paint an amazing picture for you, in Argentia, Newfoundland, we have a deepwater port there, strategically really important—in fact, FDR and Churchill met there during World War Two—and now, it is home not just to a gravity-based structure for a, for the West White Rose Oil Project. We are going to need oil for some time, and I'm very proud of the fact that some of the lowest-emitting oil in the world is off the coast of Newfoundland. But right next to it is the biggest monopile marshalling port on the Eastern seaboard. This is where all the big foundations for all those offshore wind turbines are compiled, and then distributed all through the eastern seaboard. It's happening. And I need those workers onside. I need them to know that we've got their backs, I need them to know it's okay to lower emissions, and to build up renewables. It isn't an identity thing.

Lowering the temperature on that conversation is so, so, so important. It is absolutely pivotal to the future of this country, and to the planet. And just to say this: two generations ago, we asked those same workers, we said, "Figure out how to get oil out of sand." They made us the fourth-biggest producers of oil and gas in the world. Fourth. Ahead of just about anybody else who you consider an oil-producing country, like Iran, for instance, or Iraq, or you know, Kuwait. We're ahead, way ahead. So, now you have to look him in the eye and say, "I respect what you've done; we got a hell of a new assignment for you. If you could take all that imagination, and hard work, and discipline, we need you now to lower emissions, to build up renewables." But meet them there. Applaud them for what they did—which is what we asked them to do—and let's take on a new assignment.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you, Minister. You know, if we pick up on that theme of "new assignment," and we look at the future, we look at how we shape the future, what does the next 12 months look like in the....

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
Excuse me, just one second.

Sal Rabbani
Yeah.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
What was that? I don't have my phone. We have another vote?

Unknown
Yes.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
Oh my. Okay.

Sal Rabbani
This is 21st century democracy in action.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
This, ladies, and gentlemen, a 21st century democracy in action. I have to vote. So, this is one of the nice things that happened coming out of COVID is that I get to speak—even though there are votes—to the Empire Club of Canada. You now have the benefit of watching me vote. I'm voting, "Yea." Now, comes the fun part. This is the 3D facial mapping. Kid you not. Okay. Now's not the time to—okay, let's hold steady, hold steady. Let's see if it worked. Uploading, authenticated, done. Submitted. Democracy in action. You guys can confirm with the five people back in my office in Ottawa who are shaking right now, watching this. Voted, "Yea." Can't make this up. That was perfectly timed. Anyway.

Sal Rabbani
Well, I think that's it's, it's so cool. And, and it kind of points to my next question....

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
It's nerve wracking, too. I gotta tell you.

Sal Rabbani
I'm sure. You know, if we look to the future, what does the next 12 months look like in the labour market? You know, what kind of jobs do you want folks to have? You know, we've got a lot of folks coming to the country. What do we want them to live, you know, and how do you work with Mr. Fraser to ensure that we attract, you know, the best and brightest to Canada?

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
We need him in housing. I think that's a, you know—it shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, really, when we think about it, you know. We're bringing in more immigrants now than ever before, and we need them. This demographic challenge is looming, now, it's actually been brought to bear. I think one of the things that happened during COVID, too, was that people who were near the retirement age actually retired. And we are confronting this. So, what we were already facing—which was a significant labour shortage, generally, but particularly in the skilled trades—it is here now. So, you know, one of the things that we are working on—with a number of people in this room, actually—is knocking down some of the barriers to people who are in skilled trades, so that we have more women, we have more Indigenous people, you know, we have more people from all fronts who may not have considered skilled trades.

And we're working really hard with industry—and most particularly, unions—on that, because we all realize we've got skin in this game; we just need more people. And I always make the arguments, you know, because sometimes we look at Liberals and they say, "Oh, inclusion." But, you know—and this, if you don't include everybody, you're not getting the best people. It's as simple as that. So, you get rid of these, what has become artificial barriers, knock them down, and get the best people. Because some of the most interesting and technically-intensive jobs out there right now are in skilled trades, and in natural resource extraction and development, actually. They're really, really interesting and good jobs. Very fulfilling. So, we need to encourage people to go there, and I spend a lot of time doing that.

The other point I would make on this, so it's housing, is that it's not, thankfully—as able as he is—Sean Fraser alone; it's frankly, all of us. I'm really proud that, I have to say, it's a really good team. Prime Minister has this knack for always getting the attention. But he's really drawn, I think, an exceptional group of people around him. And we really work well together. It's a good group. We're in it for the right reasons, for the most part. Like I, it's a solid group of people. I, I've, I've been around politics since I was a teenager, I've been a staffer since I was 21, I've been through all sorts of governments. I'm very proud of this one. So, we work well together. There's not a lot of what my mother would call "Old foolishness." Not a lot of foolish backstabbing, and all that sort of stuff, like, you know. And we've seen that in governments previously—Liberal and Conservative. I can tell you, hand on heart, there's not a lot of that. We can be irritatingly type-A, but good-hearted and smart, and we do work together well as a team. And I think confronting things like housing in this country, with massive, with a wave of immigrants that are coming in that we desperately need in order to come to compensate for a Baby Boom generation now that is just beginning its retirement, we got to get all these things right. It's a massive, massive deal.

And the other thing I would say, too, is wherever I can, I will work who, with whoever gets the job done. Both other parties in the House—we got paid sick leave done with all parties unanimously—I'm aiming to get replacement worker ban legislation done with all parties. I'm aiming for it. We may not; but I'm aiming for it. And, and with provinces—as I said with Sonya Savage, but with many other provinces—I will work with whoever helps me get the job done.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you, Minister. And, and let's, let's build on that replacement worker legislation. I guess it's well received by the unions and workers, but employers, some employers have some concern. They feel that maybe there's an upper hand in disputes, among other things. And then also, in terms of investor confidence, you know, do you believe this legislation will deliver that? And, and also, why do you feel we need it? You know, I mean, it's a basic question, you know, and I wonder if you might be able to comment on it, and what's your role.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. I, you know when I, it was a mandate commitment that I became Labour Minister, and I had to kind of dig into it to myself, I mean, you know, why're we changing this—and I needed to explore the reasons myself. And the more I talked and listened to people, I realized, just because it's always been this way, it doesn't mean it's right. I mean, when you really think about what replacement workers, scab workers, is all about, it's pretty disrespectful, it's pretty undignified. You know, you sit down, you sit down at a table with an employer, to negotiate better wages and working conditions with that employer—but at any given moment, they could just haul in a busload of a bunch of strangers to take your job for an indefinite amount of time. It's like something out of Charles Dickens, you know—this isn't very 21st century. These aren't, this isn't a way that you treat a partner.

The good news is this. In, so I'm the Labour Minister for federal jurisdiction, really. So, what we're talking about, here, as Marc said earlier, I mean, you're talking about banking, telecommunications—but really, as well, you know, that the supply chains in this country, as we saw in BC in the summer. Ports, rail, planes, and airports; those are primarily what we look after in federal jurisdictions. Ninety-six percent of the time, I do not make the news. We have a mediation and conciliation service, some of the smartest people I have ever met, who manage to keep people focused on the table. And if they keep people focused on the table, then the deal gets done.

The problem with replacement workers is it diverts energy, time, and it distracts away from the table. Table's where the deal gets done. This will focus everybody's mind on the table. Don't believe any of this, you know, nonsense about what unions wanting to go on strike. Very few of them have sufficient strike pay. It's, everybody is stretched these days. Nobody wants to go on strike. So, this just keeps people focused on where the deals get done. It keeps them focused, at the table. And you know, we are, we are also going to make sure that, as part of this—and we don't currently have this—essential, you know, maintenance of activities is what we call it. So, if you've got a workplace, you know, the parties now are going to have to sit down and say, well, what absolutely has to be done? And if there's a lockout or a strike, what absolutely has to be done, in order to make sure that we maintain that workplace, and maintain the environment around it?

Right now, there's no obligation on either party to do that. And now, they got, they got 15 days. And if they don't get it done in 15 days, then the Canada Industrial Review Board, it will do that, it will do that for them. And they will have 90 days. So, we've defined timelines now. Which will give everybody, I think, focus, and gives people the stability and certainty that they need. And I'm going to tell you, some of the finest, savviest negotiators I have seen—some smartest people I've met, period—are on both sides of that table, and on our federal mediation team. Our supply chains, are well-served by this, right? They really are.

And by the way, you know, where I do see some problems that I think are inherent or structural, I'll solve it—or at least work at solving it. I'm not happy with what happened in BC. I was two weeks stuck in a hotel room, looking out at an at a Vancouver port that wasn't moving. And what was really quite funny is—I don't know if anybody knows too much about Howard Hughes, who at one point was the world's wealthiest man, but went into, you know, he went to, kind of, he became a hermit there for a while, he became a hermit on the top floor of the Westin-Bayshore Hotel in Vancouver. And in that hotel room I was in, right next to it was the Howard Hughes Suite, where he—let's just say he peed in Mason jars for a long period of time. And all I can think of is, "This strike cannot last that long." So, it became an incentive, to make sure that we solved it.

There are some structural issues that, you know, when you have an association representing 32 ports and a union representing 32 ports, and if they don't get along, then the supply chain of this country is harmed, mitigated, you know, hundreds of thousands of people are worried about their jobs. We have a structural problem. So, we have, I have two people looking at it right now. And I've got, I've got powers within the Canada Labour Code that I can use, in order to make sure that we set things straight, and so that we minimize the chances of that ever happening again.

Sal Rabbani
Thanks, Minister. You kind of touched on it, you know, a lot of folks have asked, you know, when do you step in? You know, you've been pretty active in stepping in terms of, you know, these conversations. And when you when do you get the call, and what's been your approach?

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
It's got to be pretty bad, doesn't it, Joe? It's got to be pretty bad. Like I said, 96 percent of the time, we get it right. And even where I have to become involved and it comes down to the wire—like it did with WestJet right up until the beginning of May long weekend this year—I was on Dixon Road, along Pearson Airport, for five days. I tried all five steakhouses—there are five steakhouses on Dixon Road. We, you know, we got parties to agree. Here's, here's the, you know—people talk about back-to-work legislation. I fought tooth-and-nail, tooth-and-nail, to make sure we did not do back-to-work for legislation. If we had done it, MP's right across the country, we could have voted, just like you saw. But I got no control over the senate. And those senators would have had to come back in person. A bunch of angry senators being taken away from their cottages over the summer—I don't know how that vote would go. Back-to-work legislation is kind of archaic, too. Like do the hard work, do the job, stop coming to the government, asking me to solve it. It's your responsibility to solve this at the table. Do the hard work. There are far too many people on day one or day two of a strike saying, "When's government going to step in?" Do the work. You're all paid enough—most of you are paid more than me—do the work.

I'm not a big fan of back-to-work legislation. And what sealed the deal for me was that WestJet dispute. It was the first time that the WestJet pilots actually came to an agreement with the company. Before then, it had been imposed on them, an arbitrator came in, the government came in. And it fosters animosity. It really does. The animosity that can fester with replacement workers can act, can last for generations. It can stain a workplace for generations. And therefore, deals that come are harder to come by, because nobody trusts anybody, right?

It's, it's, this is one of the reasons why we have replacement worker legislation, too, a ban. It's because it will last generations. But with WestJet, this year, they arrived at that deal themselves. And I, they were so, there was so much animosity between these two parties. Then I heard that they got an agreement. And by the time I went over there, not only not only were they arm-in-arm around one another, literally, the pilots and the employers—I think they were about five bottles of champagne in, feeling very little pain, and ecstatic— and I've checked in with them since. And their workplace culture between the company and those pilots has changed completely. Completely. They work together now, every day. It made for a better thing.

And here's why: if anybody's involved, been involved in these negotiations—and it's nerve-wracking enough, just being the guy on the sideline—when it comes to doing the deal, you're looking at the person across from the table with their own constituencies, with their own stakeholders, and you got to jump off that ledge together. You've come to this agreement, and now, you got to go back to both sides and say, "We believe that this is a good deal." You're taking that leap together. That bonds people. And when it works out, it's human nature, you're closer to these people. You found common cause. That's what we want. That leads to stability, it leads to predictability, it's what our economy needs.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you, Minister. We're, we're almost at time, and have time for one last question. And, you know, you touch on common ground, you know, when you're sitting at the table, what percentage of your mind is pro-labour, and what percentage is pro-business, and how do you weigh both?

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
I'm pro-deal.

Sal Rabbani
Fair enough. It's a good answer.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
I know that sounds kind of trite, like it was rehearsed. It's not. I'm pro-deal, because I have great faith in people to look after their own interests. I have great faith in union negotiators, the ones I've met, to speak up loudly for the interests of their, of workers, of their membership. I have great faith in the negotiators for companies to look after shareholders, and investors, and management. And when they reached that deal, they reached it in good faith with both sides and both interests at heart. And for the most part, like I said, 96 percent of the time, they arrive at this, and it never comes to a, to a lockout, never comes to a strike; 96 percent of the time. Because they recognize that their interests are intertwined. They are together. And they both want stability, and certainly, certainty. As do we all.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you very much, Minister. We're at a time. I very much appreciate you joining us here in Toronto at the Empire Club. And I now have the pleasure to invite Joseph Mancinelli, the International Vice-President, and Canadian Director for LiUNA, to offer the appreciation remarks. Joseph?

Note of Appreciation by Joseph Mancinelli, International Vice-President, and Canadian Director, LiUNA
Thank you, buddy. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is probably the first time that I noticed that there was a "Jr." after Seamus O'Regan. So, I have not been paying attention. But for the life of me, I can't imagine that there was another Seamus O'Regan.

The Hon. Seamus O'Regan
You would've liked him.

Joseph Mancinelli
With all due respect to Senior—who I did not have an opportunity to meet—this Seamus O'Regan is definitely one-of-a-kind. This minister cares about Canadians, whether we're in labour or in management. He really does care. I have seen him globetrot across the country, visiting local unions, training centers, colleges, and universities, talking to workers. He really does care. And I think today, ladies and gentlemen, you agree with me.

In his presentation, you've seen that, the level of, of knowledge that he has, but the emotions that he has, and caring for Canadians. And I thought your presentation, Seamus, was wonderful, like usual—wouldn't be the first time I've heard you speak, but I think you touched on some notes that I think were significant. So, I thank you for your thoughtfulness, and for your presentation today, and also for your patriotism. Thank you so much.

Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
Thank you. Thank you, Joseph. And thanks again to all our sponsors for their support, and everyone joining us today in person or online. As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on-demand on our website. The recording of this event will be available, and everyone registered will receive an e-mail with the link.

On Monday, December 4th, join us in person for a fireside conversation with the Premier of Nova Scotia, the Honourable Tim Houston, to discuss how he's guiding Nova Scotia through various challenges and opportunities. On Tuesday, December 5th, join us and the Honourable Kinga Surma, Ontario's Minister for Infrastructure, for Ontario's Fall Infrastructure Update. Thank you for your participation and support. Please enjoy this time to connect. This meeting is now adjourned.