Mental Health: We Have Come a Long Way, But Are We There Yet?

April 12, 2024

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

Mental Health: We Have Come a Long Way, but Are We There Yet?

Chairman: Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Atrisha Lewis, Board Member, Empire Club of Canada, Member, Law Society of Upper Canada, Ontario

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Caitlin Tolley, Director, Empire Club of Canada
The Honourable Justice Michelle O’Bonsawin, Supreme Court of Canada

Head Table Guests
Meron Bayu, OSSD Candidate Class of 2024, SATEC @ WA Porter Collegiate Institute Youth Animator, Peacebuilders Canada
Carole Dagher, Vice President, Legal, Weston Group
Sarah Downey, CEO, CMHA
Wes Hall, Executive Chairman & Founder, Kingsdale Advisors
Rubaba Rabbani
Pierre Robichaud, Partner, Andrews Robichaud
Chris Vollmershausen, Executive Vice-President, Legal, General Counsel & Corporate Secretary, Agnico Eagle
Justice Jodie-Lynn Waddilove, Ontario Court of Justice
Tsering Yangki, EVP, Real Estate Finance & Development, Dream Global REIT

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Sal Rabbani, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Hello everyone. Welcome to the 120th season of the Empire Club of Canada. Today, we're welcoming on our stage the Honourable Michelle O'Bonasawin, Judge Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, who will open up a conversation about the very important topic of mental health in the workplace. Welcome to the Empire Club, Madam O'Bonasawin, it's an honour to have you. Your vast experience, as well as your thorough understanding of the legal issues related to mental health, labour, employment, human rights, the Gladue principles, and so much more, will bring in valuable perspective to all of us. We're very much looking forward to hearing from you. I'd like to take, also, the opportunity to thank our very own board member, Trisha Lewis, who will moderate today's conversation, and who also serves as a bencher for the Law Society of Upper Canada, Ontario.

And a big thank you to our sponsors, who generously support the club, and make these events possible and complementary for our online viewers to attend. Thank you to our Lead Event Sponsor, Agnico Eagle, and thank you to our Season Sponsors, Amazon Web Services, Bruce Power, and Hydro One. This is an interactive event, so we'll take questions live from the audience today. And so, for those of you also that are joining us online, you can ask questions through that Q&A portal under the video player.

Mental health is health. According to the World Health Organization, Mental Health is a state of mental well-being that enables people to cope with the stresses of life, realize their abilities, learn well, and work well, and contribute to their community. The analogy is often used, when we break a leg, or have a bad cold, most of us go to the doctor, no hesitation, no question. Yet when we feel sad, depressed, or just are not ourselves, and we just don't have that same reflex. It seems more difficult to ask for help. And this happens for many reasons: there's stigma and social pressure, there are costs, self-censorship, telling ourselves that everything is okay, and we don't need any help. And this affects our ability to learn, work, interact with others, and fulfill our potential.

Some facts I wanted to share with you today, one in two Canadians have or have had a mental illness by the time they reached the age of 40 years old. Indigenous Peoples are at a higher risk when it comes to mental health, as are People of Colour, adults with disabilities mental distress almost five times as often as adults without disabilities, and almost half of Canada's business owners are facing mental health challenges. In my day job, I have the honour of serving entrepreneurs. And we've been focusing on entrepreneurs' mental health for many years now, doing studies, increasing awareness, and fostering conversations. And we've seen the situation declining, as the pandemic accentuated many existing issues. The need for support is overwhelming. And this is the case where, everywhere we look, when it comes to mental health. If we want to foster a diverse and inclusive society and workplace, we need to consider that everyone's mind works differently. We each have different interests, motivations, skills, and strengths. Understanding, recognizing, and embracing these differences will only make us stronger.

On a very personal note, I'd like to say hi to my mom, who's here today. Hi, mom. My mom is not only the greatest mom in the world. And she gave me a shot, you know? She, she came here from another country for a better life, and so, thank you. She's also a support worker at Community Living in Toronto, dedicating her pre-retirement retirement time to helping people with intellectual disabilities. Among the many, many things that she taught me, I think the most important one is this power of empathy. How much we can accomplish with compassion and kindness, when someone around us is seeking emotional support, or is just having a bad day. Empathy is something that's within our reach, and a great start for any conversation around mental health at home, at work, and everywhere else. We can all create a more supportive environment for our own mental health, and for everyone else around us, by being gentle, compassionate, and understanding. Thank you. And it is actually now my pleasure to invite my colleague, fellow director Caitlin Tolley, Board Director of the Empire Club of Canada, to kick off, to deliver our Land Acknowledgement, and more importantly, who's passionate advocacy made this event to reality. Caitlin.

Opening Remarks by Caitlin Tolley, Director, Empire Club of Canada
[Remarks in Algonquin Anishinaabe] Good afternoon, friends, colleagues and distinguished guests. My name is Caitlin Tolley, and I'm Algonquin Anishinaabe from the First Nation community of Kitigan Zibi, located in the southwest region of Québec, where I was born and raised. I previously served on leadership in my First Nation community as an elected Band Counsellor, and I now practice and work as a lawyer here in Toronto. I'm also proud to serve as a Board of Director with the Empire Club of Canada. Connection to my First Nation community is so important to me, as well as being an advocate in the spaces and boardrooms, where I'm able to make a positive contribution, and bring a diverse perspective. Giving back to community is an important value to me. When I was growing up within my community, I was taught the importance of strengthening nationhood, and that I had a responsibility to contribute and give back to my community in a positive manner. I was raised to be proud of who I am, to know where I come from, to believe in myself, and to recognize my rights and responsibilities. My family and community instilled a sense of duty and responsibility in me, that I have a responsibility to one day give back, and to improve the quality of life for our people and others. I do not take this lightly. This is a kinship relationship that comes with different layers, laws, roles, and responsibilities. If I'm going to speak, I must only speak the truth, if I'm going to act, I must act in a humble way, and if I'm going to lead, I must lead by example, with courage and with bravery. Which I believe has led me to leadership roles and being a lawyer today.

I acknowledge the territory and the Nations have been occupying this Sacred Territory since time immemorial. The ancestral lands, seeds, and soil of the Mississaugas, the Anishinaabeg, and the Haudenosaunee Peoples and Nations, whose territory we're all guests on, and on which we are privileged to gather and meet today. I thank the Traditional host Nations for allowing me to live and be a guest on their territory. Acknowledging the land is a protocol that is used to express gratitude to those who reside here, and to honour the First Peoples to have occupied, and who have presently taken care of this land historically. I know that there are those who will be attending and viewing this event online, who may be coming from different places from across Canada. And it's important for us to think about Reconciliation, and how that fits into our daily lives, and the responsibilities that we have. I would like to invite you to think about what Reconciliation means to you, your organizations, and your companies. I would also like to express my thanks to Sal Rabbani and the Empire Club for inviting me to speak today.

Today is a really good day. Today, we're going to be hearing about the important discussion of mental health and the workplace. And to me, part of Reconciliation means taking the time to truly listen to the perspectives of Indigenous leaders, and in particular, the voices of Indigenous women. This is an opportunity for us to rise, and to unapologetically take up space. By making room for Indigenous women, we will allow for more diverse perspectives to be integrated into the legal profession. Our world will benefit from different points of view that come from Indigenous perspectives, and from hearing different experiences. It is up to all of us to make positive change for future generations, and to empower the next generation. I hope that by hearing the stories and the messages from today's panellists that you will be inspired on your journey. I am now pleased to introduce the Honourable Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin. Justice O'Bonsawin was born in a small Francophone town near Sudbury, and she is a member of the Odanak First Nation, located in Québec. She was the first Indigenous Justice to be appointed to Canada's highest court, and today we are privileged to hear from Justice O'Bonsawin, who will deliver a keynote address, followed by a fireside chat moderated by Trisha Lewis. Two women who have inspired me to dream big. So, with that, it is now my pleasure to invite Justice O'Bonsawin to take the stage.

The Honourable Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin, Supreme Court of Canada
[Remarks in Abenaki] I start off, as per our tradition, by introducing myself in my Abenaki language. As you know, I am Michelle O'Bonsawin, a proud member of Odanak First Nation, a Turtle Clan member, and the daughter of Richard and Diane. I want to start off by thanking Caitlin for the beautiful land acknowledgement, and sharing her wise words with us. They were deeply heartfelt, and I do thank you, wliwni, for that, and also for the beautiful introduction. I also want to thank the Empire Club and everyone who's responsible for organizing this event today. Wliwni.

I'm really delighted to be here with you all today to talk about something that is really important to me, and that is about mental health. I've been really fortunate during my career to be able to specialize in this area. And this is an area where, I have to say, it has a deep personal impact on everyone in this room. Among the many challenges in mental health, individuals touched by the illness can feel often secluded. A person can look on the exterior like everything is fine, but inside, in reality, they are suffering. As General Counsel of the Royal Ottawa Healthcare Group, a leading mental Health Centre located in Ottawa, I saw firsthand the effects of mental health and mental illness.

I want to start off by talking to you with regard to a case that deeply touched me, and it was with regard to a young teenage male and his family. As I was preparing the client, who was the physician—who was my client—he had asked if I would be willing to meet with the parents to have a general discussion before our hearing. And at that moment in time, I thought it was really important to meet with them, and to hear their voice. And the mother came into my office and immediately started by talking about her son, and how he was energetic, full of hope about the future. However, when mental illness touched him the year before, everything changed for him, and for their lives. She told me how it was so important for her son to have access to the mental health services, and for those to be continued, and for him to remain at the Royal, because otherwise she was fearful that he would commit suicide. And at that time, she started to cry. And I took her in my arms. And I have to say, I didn't take her in my arms as a lawyer, but I really did so as one mother to another. And that is the reason why it was so touching to me, because as a parent, we all think of our children, who can be touched by mental health issues.

And I just want to start off by saying, I really believe that the stigma associated with mental health will definitely lessen, if we talk about it more openly and publicly. And I've been quite fortunate by being named into this role, as a Justice to the Supreme Court of Canada, that I do have a platform, and I'm able to continually share my thoughts and my hopes for those that are touched by mental illness, and for our society as a, as a large. Unfortunately, you did hear Sal address this issue that, at times, mental illness is often in that shadows. It's not something that is seen like a broken arm, where immediately, you know that that person has broken a limb. But what I would hope is that,, by having these discussions that individuals that are touched by mental illness actually emerge from the shadows, and feel comfortable enough to share with regard to their journey with others; with family, with friends, and with colleagues.

I know Sal gave you a bit of statistics at the beginning, but I'm going to share more statistics. Because I think a lot of times that individuals are able to relate to an issue, to know more, when they hear the numbers. And in every given year, one in five Canadians are touched directly by mental illness. And by age 40, approximately 50 percent of the population will have had or has had a mental illness. Simply put, look at around your table. There are approximately 50 percent of individuals in this room that are touched by mental illness. And this goes to show the wide impact that this issue has on our Canadian population. While it affects individuals from all backgrounds, members from marginalized groups, and especially women, are highly impacted by mental health. For example, women experience depression and anxiety twice as much as men, but experience more barriers when accessing care. Shame and stigma about mental illness can keep those from actually accessing the help that they so desperately require. Workplaces that do not foster a culture of support can often lose valuable employees. Mental illness spares no one. And even those in this area are all touched by it.

In late 2022, a study was carried out in the legal profession by l'Université de Sherbrooke, the Federation of Law Societies of Canada, and the Canadian Bar Association, regarding the impact of mental health in the legal profession. The study found that at least half of the participants reported suffering from a psychological distress and burnout. The study surveyed more than 7000 individuals, legal professions, professionals from all jurisdictions, including lawyers, articling students, paralegals, and Québec and Ontario notaries. Even through the study, even though it was done over the course of the pandemic, it highlights problems that have been part of our profession for a long period of time. The study found that significant higher rates of psychological distress in lawyers, versus the general population. When we look at the numbers: 57 percent of lawyers, versus 43 percent of the general population, are impacted by psychological distress. However, as with the general population, women and our younger generation are more deeply impacted. The researchers found that work-life conflict is a critical stressor, and is associated with a significant lower level of commitment to the profession, and a substantially higher level of intention to leave our profession as a whole.

I want to note, however, that we have come a long way in recognizing the impact of mental illness, and mental health issues on our profession, and how we're able to deal with them in an effective and open way. While initial human rights codes and statutes throughout Canada did not prohibit discrimination based on mental disability, the law has evolved through the last 50-plus years to recognize mental health disabilities as a protected ground. Now, many conditions like depression, anxiety, OCD, PTSD, are readily recognized as protected grounds, under various human rights codes throughout Canada.

We all know the pressures of working in high-stake professions, and how integral our jobs can be to our own sense of identity; so much so that it can be difficult to know what to do when we are faced with our own limits. It is easy to take on the stresses of clients and colleagues, because we all want to help. However, as much as this can be seen as helping others, it can also take a significant toll on our own mental health. Professional careers are extremely demanding in so many ways, and it is not uncommon to experience highs and lows in your mental health. How do some people deal with these stressors? It can be through the use of alcohol or drugs, exhibited other compulsive behaviours, taking it out on family members and coworkers, et cetera.

As a mother, it has not always been easy for me to achieve work-life balance. To be honest, I just have not always been successful. However, I continue to try to achieve this goal. I definitely do not have the magic solution. And like many of you, I continue to do the best that I can—and in my case, to be a good mother, and wife, and colleague, and a friend. I try to be mindful, and listen to my body when it speaks to me. I also am trying to constantly be empathetic towards others that are in need. If I see a family member, a friend or a colleague, that seems to be facing a difficult moment, I'll ask questions, and I'll offer assistance.

For many of us, our jobs are really a crucial part of our identities. We introduce ourselves as professionals first, and individuals second. For example, when I started off at the Supreme Court of Canada, I went around and introduced myself. And there was a particular moment that I recall, because I introduced myself to one of the clerks. And I introduced myself, and I asked her, I said, "And so, tell me about yourself. Who are you?" And she said, "Well, I am Justice so-and-so's clerk." And I said, "No, no, I didn't ask you who you're clerking for. I'm asking who you are. What's your name?" So, I think it's really important for us to be mindful that we can't always associate ourselves specifically with our position, but we have to introduce ourselves as individuals first. I think that at times, individuals make themselves or do themselves a disservice, because of this desire to be always at the top of their game. When we don't take care of ourselves, absolutely no one benefits.

I'm quickly going to go back to some of the statistics of the Sherbrooke study: 46.8 percent of the participants indicated that they did not seek help, even though they required it. Many of the lawyers indicated that they felt they did not have enough time to seek help—which is something we hear quite frequently—or that they were worried about the judgment that would be posed upon them by their colleagues. One of the biggest barriers to people accessing support for their mental health, and their struggles that they are dealing with on a daily basis, is the shame and the stigma surrounding the disclosure, and the fear of being reprimanded and ostracized in their workplace. So, then the main question is: how do we address this issue in a professional environment?

Well, first off, access to information is really the key. We need to know about accommodations for mental health issues; how can they be readily available in the workplace? Supports like employee assistance programs, and counselling resources, can go a long way in ensuring that employees have the supports that they direly require. Many of the skills and resources that are the most effective in preserving mental health are also, at times, the most difficult to access. The study identified that autonomy as the resource with the most decisive impact on health. The autonomy over work-life, and the workplace, is associated with significantly lower levels of stress, psychological distress, depressive symptoms, and burnout. Furthermore, assertiveness is a key skill in preventing burnout. Having the space to assert boundaries firmly gives professionals a better sense of control over their lives. However, it can be difficult for younger professionals to establish autonomy, and even assertiveness, in a profession that often promotes, "You better produce or get out" mentality. This is where upper management is essential. Senior management should ensure that they're not pushing their own stress onto their staff. They also need to take seriously the circumstances that make people feel like they don't have time to seek help for their mental health struggles. Enforcement of boundaries is a must, and it has to come from the top down. We need to be able to lead by example. This is where empowerment comes in. I'm not saying that there won't be long days and long nights. That happens in every profession. However, we should strive that this is not the norm.

This involves making small changes. For example, seasoned professionals in this room, I encourage you to stop glamourizing the long working hours, by establishing and maintaining more regular business hours, if possible. We must make efforts to change this mentality. For example, a lot of my friends and family members know I'm not a huge sleeper, and that I was those that would send emails at all hours of the night—that was quite common for me, when I started practicing in the area of law. But when I became General Counsel at the Royal in 2009, I changed my practice. I'm working at a leading mental health institute; it was important for me, as a senior manager, to actually practice what I preached. So, what I had established at the time was, all of my clients were well aware that the working hours of the legal department were between eight o'clock in the morning, and six at night. And what I would do was, I would get emails throughout the evening, but instead of responding right away like I had done in the past, in my past practice, I would actually draft all of my responses, and wait till the next morning at eight o'clock—because it's extremely rare that everything's going to fall apart in the middle of the night. But my client was aware that if there were exceptions, they could give me a call, and I would always be responsive. I know that this is not a solution, but that was my small contribution to basically train my clients to understand that there were boundaries, and that they had to be exercised. And the enforcement of this boundary has to come from all the senior leaders in this room. We need to be able to lead by example.

What I've just explained to you is always the ideal setting, but we know it's not always possible. There are challenges, we can't always have typical hours of operations, emergencies will happen. At times, we should be looking at larger changes, like providing time off for dealing with mental health issues, providing a benefit plan that's accessible to all, that covers therapy and prescriptions, and even at times, offering stipends for physical activities or wellness. Support in the workplace is another major way to help reduce the stigma surrounding mental illness. And support can come in many forms. Support from colleagues is associated with positive health outcomes, particularly in reducing psychological distress and depressive symptoms. We need to be proactive in making sure our colleagues know we will be understanding, if they come forward and share that they are having difficulties. And we want them to make everyone feel safe and secure in their work environment. Understanding is the key. We need to see each other as people first, and judges, lawyers, professionals second. Everyone has their own struggles outside of their career. And being open and understanding of that can go a long way of keeping people in the profession. Workplaces that support their employees have better retention rates. They are more profitable, and report better workplace satisfaction than workplaces that do not.

The study also found that two of the biggest factors against burnout include career opportunities, and working remotely. These factors were particularly effective against burnout for young women, with less than 10 years of experience. Management can support employees by supporting career development, and implementing flexibility in working arrangements. Employers can also directly support employees in caring for their mental health, by reducing the number of hoops they have to go through to access services, to get time off, or to be accommodated.

Finally, I want to address the three groups in this room. The first are the skeptics, with regard to mental illness, the second group are those who are the supporters of someone who has experienced mental health and mental illness, and the last group are those who are personally touched by mental illness. For those of you who are skeptics, you have a right to your opinion. However, I ask you to be open-minded, and to learn about the effects of mental illness on individuals. Because with knowledge comes a better understanding. For the second group, those of you who are the support systems to those that are touched by mental illness: I encourage you to check in with them, to talk to them, to ask them if they are okay, and at times, simply to invite them for a coffee. Letting know someone, letting someone know that you care goes a very long way. Telling someone that you're going to be there for them, that they are not alone, could be all that that person requires at that moment in time. There are all little things that we could do as individuals. And lastly, for those of you who are experiencing challenges—I'm talking to you, and you know who you are—I encourage you to go out and to seek support that you need, if you have not already done so, and continue seeking that support throughout. You're not doing this alone. Your family members, your friends, and your colleagues, are all attempting to help you, and there's nothing to be gained by acting as though you're superhuman. So, think about it. What do clients do when they have issues? They seek help from all of you. So, now, why can't you seek help or support with something that you're not necessarily equipped to deal with, at that moment in time?

I want to make it clear that while there are issues with mental health in all professions, I think that we are making positive strides to change and improve things. We are starting to normalize talking about mental illness, and mental health issues, and encouraging these conversations in the workplace. For example, of instead of seeing things like depression or anxiety as laziness, we understand that these are legitimate health conditions. We have gone from having little to no protections or accommodations for people living with mental illness, to a world where mental illness is actively talked about. [Remarks in French]

We all benefit by taking strides to address mental health, and to support one another. I know that you can all be part of the positive change when it comes to mental health, because you are all game changers. So please, be advocates when it comes to mental health, and to reduce the stigma associated with it. I just want to thank you all for having taken the time to listen to me. I'm very humbled, and thankful to have been part of your event. Wliwni. Merci Beaucoup. Thank you.

Sal Rabbani
Thank you. Thank you very much, the Honourable Madam Justice O'Bonsawin. I'd now like to invite Atrisha Lewis to the stage to facilitate our conversation. Atrisha, welcome.

Atrisha Lewis, Board Member, Empire Club of Canada, Member, Law Society of Upper Canada, Ontario
All right. Thank you. That was, that was an inspiring keynote. You hit on a lot of really important topics, which I will explore more detail in this conversation. But I do want to invite the folks in this room, as well as online, to pose questions. I have an iPad where I can see the online questions, and I think we have someone who will be collecting in-person questions; Justice O'Bonsawin had told me beforehand that she really does welcome and invite questions from the audience. So, to start off, you mentioned a lot of really important steps and initiatives that organizations can take to foster mental health, and destigmatize mental illness. And, and before we got in here today, I was asking some people in the room, you know, what do you want to hear? And some of the more junior members of the profession said, you know, does Justice O'Bonsawin have advice for us as new entrants, early career individuals, perhaps even students, about what they can do to protect their own mental health, as they enter into a new, demanding profession?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
I think what's really important is to sit down with, wherever these individuals are going to be working, with their senior manager, to find out what the expectations are of their role; because I think that it's really important for someone coming into a position to understand. Because it does happen quite frequently that—in the legal field, anyway—that you'll start at a firm, and there's not necessarily that discussion of what the expectations are. So, that's the first point. The second one is to discuss boundaries. And I, I know in my keynote I talked about it's difficult for the younger generation to talk about how to set boundaries. But I think it's really essential, with that kick off, meaning that you're going to have, as you're entering that new role, to have the discussions of what the expectations are, what the boundaries are; are you meant to jump through hoops constantly; whenever your boss calls? And at times, it's going to be to explain your own personal situation. Because in our profession, in the legal profession, many women are leaving the profession because they have families, and they can't balance and juggle being on 24/7 as a lawyer, in addition to being a full-time mom and a partner. And it's difficult, at times, to balance all those things. So, to share also, with senior management, your own personal situation is important. Because I think communication is the key to successful career—and I think it starts on the first day of work.

Atrisha Lewis
I agree. I think communication is very important. What would you say to people who have multiple bosses? And I think in the context of a law firm, like the one I'm at, where an early career lawyer or a student will have maybe 20-30 people that they report to or, you know, a sole practitioner that might have a bunch of different clients?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
That almost sounds like a question we asked during article interviews. How do you balance all the different campaigning people who want a piece of you? And I think it's the first key to success is to learn how to prioritize. When you know how to prioritize, I think that's your first step in the right direction. And how do you do that? Well, you have to go about by meeting the key players that you're working with—and it comes back to my earlier comment about communication. So, if that communication takes place, you're able to prioritize. And at times, there are going to be moments where you're going to have competing issues—and that's where having that discussion, is definitely going to settle your mind as to what their appropriate route is to take, moving forward.

Atrisha Lewis
So, one comment that you touched on just in answering these questions, but also in your keynote, was about women in law, and intersectionality in particular. Can you talk a bit about—and you alluded to it—but some of the challenges women in law face? As well as other communities—so, Indigenous communities, or Indigenous women lawyers, as a double intersection.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
So, for women, it's not always easy. I've been fortunate to, to be married to someone who's in the legal profession, who's able to understand what it means to be a lawyer, to be a litigator. So, we've always been able to work together as a team, to organize, to make sure that our kids are never having dinner alone. So, our, our role was, our, our agreement was always that no matter what, one of the two of us was always at home with our children for dinner. And we've always maintained that, throughout all of my career. So, that really made a difference. But for those women who don't have a support system, it's more difficult. It's more difficult to juggle who's going to take care of the child or the children after hours, if I have to work late—I don't have a family member, because I'm not from the Toronto area, for example, and I don't have that support mechanism. And I think that's why we're losing a lot of women in our profession. So, I think to be successful as a female in law, support mechanisms are the key to success. I think they're instrumental. And at times, it doesn't necessarily have to be a family member; it could be a friend, it could be a network of colleagues that support each other. And I think that really makes a difference.

With regards to marginalized groups, I think that we've seen a significant increase of our people in the legal field. For example, for Indigenous people, we, for the first time, have two of my colleagues, Chief Justice Leonard Marchand, who is the Chief Justice of the British Columbia Court of Appeal, and also Justice Jonathon George, who's on the Court of Appeal of Ontario, here in Toronto. These are strong Indigenous leaders in our community, and there are many, many Indigenous judges that are sitting at in courts throughout Canada, and we've seen an increase. So much so that, I'm fortunate to work with Chief Justice Joe Williams from the Supreme Court in New Zealand, and we're actually creating an association of Indigenous, International Association of Indigenous Judges. So, we're really starting to take our place, and we're starting it to see it with different marginalized groups. Are we there yet? Absolutely not. We have a long ways to go. But I'm hoping that, with time comes openness, and that we're all going to pierce that veil, and we're all going to be successful.

But at times, it's not always easy. And I'll give you an example. So, when I started sitting on the Superior Court of Justice, within a couple of months, Trump had made a comment the night before about Senator Warren, who he had referred to as "Pocahontas." And in our culture, that is something that is degrading, because it's not—Pocahontas, is not Disney, like you see. Pocahontas was really a slave. And what happened was, on the next day, I was sitting on a long motions list, and lawyers are coming in and out of the courtroom. And at one point, I hear a, a woman, a senior lawyer, talking to a junior lawyer about 20 feet away. And she's speaking so loudly, I'm on the verge to tell her to calm down, cause I, I she's too loud, I can't read this order. But before I get to say that, I hear her say to the junior lawyer, "Oh, she's Native Indian. She's our Pocahontas of the North." And it goes to show that, no matter where you are in society, discrimination happens at all levels. But what's really important is how you react to the situation. And I went on to put it on the record, and then afterwards, did a series of different steps to ensure that there was sensitivity training going on in the firm, that there were discussions to be had. So, I think that, I urge everyone in this room that, if you see that there's a situation that is happening around you that is inappropriate, you have a mandate to actually act, and to bring it forward, and to speak about it. Because as I told my children that night when I got home, it was a teaching moment for them. It doesn't matter where we are in society. If we're from a marginalized community, an Indigenous community, or other, at times, discrimination could take place. But what is important is how we actually respond to this situation, to ensure that it doesn't continue.

Atrisha Lewis
Thank you. It is, it is very daunting, sometimes, to, to take steps when, when you are the victim of discrimination. It actually reminds me of something, what a, a good friend has said to me, which is "See something, say something." So...

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Absolutely.

QUESTION & ANSWER

Atrisha Lewis
...thank you for modeling that. One question that we have online is around mental health, and economic insecurity. So, advice for an individual who's facing economic insecurity, with regards to how to foster their own mental health?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Those are difficult times. When I was at the Royal, we had done a lot of research, a psychiatrist and I, about the economic impact on mental illness. And they really, a lot of times, go hand-in-hand. Because when you're in that economic insecurity phase, that's where the stressors come out, and there's a huge impact on the individual's mental health. So, what I could respond, in that case, is to try to get access to services. Because there are services that are available. It's difficult, however, to know when, where, how to access—but I have to say, now, in our new digital world, we're quite fortunate that there are a lot of services that are noted online. So, I would encourage that individual to do research, seek out help. Here in Toronto, there's CAMH, which is a leader in mental health; they have a variety of different services that are accessible. So, I would urge that person to have a look at their website, and other community groups, to seek help when needed.

Atrisha Lewis
And building on some of the discussion on intersectionality, this is another online question, is: "How can women professionally navigate through the mental distress in a workplace that is dominated by male managers, and C-Suite members?"

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
I have to say, I've lived through that—and I'm sure a lot of the women in my vintage have lived through moments like that—it's not always easy. But I think, as a woman, we have to stay true to who we are as individuals; we don't have to give up our place to anyone else. And we have to be firm in our beliefs, and make sure that we don't change who we are to fit into a mould that is not our own. And I would definitely say that, that it's important to, to remain that way. Because otherwise, we're going to be manipulated to do something, at times, we may not want to do. So, if it's an environment where the woman doesn't feel comfortable, it might be time to start thinking about a change of scenery, and looking to go elsewhere.

Atrisha Lewis
And how important is mentoring to the mental health discussion?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
I think mentoring is the key to more than just mental health. I think that it's a great way to move us forward. I've been fortunate throughout my career to have mentorship at different levels, and I think one of the messages that I try to share with people is, you're not going to have one mentor throughout your whole career. So, I want everyone to be mindful that it's okay to change mentors, to add, to lose. Because depending on where you are in your career, your mentorship is going to change. And I have to say, my mentorship throughout all of my career has changed, it's evolved. And at times when I am unsure, there are things that are bothering me, I actually seek assistance from my mentors—and I still do that today. And for me, that helps calm my mind. Because at times when I'm not too sure what I should be doing, I have questions, I seek out my mentor, who normally helps me, and directs me in the right way. And for me, that really appeases me, and helps me focus, and move forward.

Atrisha Lewis
I think we have a question from the audience, so I'm just going to turn it over to the audience member.

Audience Member
Yes, hi.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Hello, what's your name?

Audience Member
My name is, in Mohawk, it's [indiscernible] I'm from Six Nations, Wolf Clan.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Kwehkwe.

Audience Member
Shé:kon, skennenkó:wa ken? [Remarks in French]

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Merci Beaucoup.

Audience Member
But it's funny, like I can, I can speak two non-Native languages, but I can't speak my own. I'm a Mohawk. Cayuga Mohawk was spoke in our family; it put a lot of stress on us. And one of the things that we've, we've tried to discern over the years is, is that as we see—and we've just had recently, in our community of Six Nations, which is not far from here, we're, as you know, we're the largest First Nations in Canada. We've had over 93 deaths just recently, many of them young people; suicide, suffering mental health issues. One of the things we found—you mentioned it yourself—the, the economic stresses and economic inadequacies that it's been imposed, actually, it's been imposed upon us by the government, and successive governments over the time. And that's one of the stresses that have been, really, been put on us, as they're, as they're being the—I would say a lot of the bearers of that stress that have come down upon our community, has been come, come from the inadequacies that we that we have in our community, compared to other communities.

So, my question is, is that, is there a way that we can look at changing the outlook for the government that can relieve some of those stresses upon some of these First Nation communities, and some of the communities are in really dire need of help due to, you know, lack of funding, lack of mental health professionals. I'm in health myself; we find that we're not getting a lot of the, the services that other communities get. And we've actually looked upon it as discrimination on a funding level, as well. Not only from economics, not only from their, sort of—they sort of overlook everything we do, and everything we can do. So, what we have to get people to realize—and I know you, you said that earlier too, is that it, it has to come from the top. You know, the top has to—and is there a way that we can send that message? Because we, we, feel we're down here; we shouldn't, when there's someone up there.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
So, when it comes to funding issues, I, I have to say, I can't say too much, because actually in the next few weeks we have a an Indigenous file and funding issues that's in front of us—so, I can't talk about that publicly. But what I could encourage any Indigenous community is to move forward and have active discussions, to talk about the improvement of funding formulas. I do understand exactly what's going on in the different communities—not everything first-hand, but from our own community, to others. I know that there are difficult moments, I know that there's a lot of intergenerational trauma, there's a lot of issues with regard to our loss of language. I'm a product of our revitalization of our language program at [indiscernible], that I'm actively continuing with my lessons. So I, I definitely understand what you're saying. But this is one of those situations where I can't comment, because this is an issue that's squarely before us in the next few weeks.

Atrisha Lewis
So, thank you for your question—and I encourage anyone else, if you have questions, too, raise them—but I wanted to ask you about lawyers and other legal professionals who are on the frontline of challenging areas of practice, like criminal and family law, and, and who often experience secondary trauma, as a, as a result of that. Can you speak about strategies that either you've employed, or you've seen employed by colleagues, in various settings?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
So, we've been talking about this for awhile, about trauma-informed care, and how we should go about dealing with issues when it comes to, to trauma. And it doesn't escape anyone, anyone who works in it. A lot of people working in the legal profession are touched by this, especially those that are working on difficult criminal matters; family, and child protection matters. We see all kinds of really horrible things, and it impacts people in all kinds of different ways. What I would encourage everyone to do is, as the first indication that you have a feeling that whatever you're working on has impacted you in a way that you feel uncomfortable with, is to seek help. Through the Law Society, there is a hotline that is really important to access, where it's not going to be disclosed of your identity, et cetera. It's personalized service that is really important to have access to. I myself have been fortunate to have a partner who's in the law, so I'm able to share and discuss, and work my way through things that bother me on trials, and—because when I was doing forensic mental health work, those are files where individuals in Canada are found not criminally responsible, or unfit to stand trial. And I call it the parallel system of criminal justice, because it, instead of going into the jail system, they go into the forensic mental health system, and that's what my old life was at the Royal. And at times, I've always said those files prepared me for their work I was going to do as a trial judge. Because some are difficult to deal with. And you have different mechanisms you put in place, and at times when I've had to, to talk to someone, I've been able to do it. And I tried, also, to separate—it's not always easy, especially when I was a trial judge—to separate what is happening at work, stays at work, and when I'm at home, I'm at home with my family. I've not always been successful; there have been ups and downs. But at the end of the day I, I try to ensure that I do that. I myself, for my own mental health, I try to exercise—at times, I'm better than others. I spend time with my family—we have four dogs, so we're busy—and I paint. So, when I'm stressed, I need to decomp, and just go, I go downstairs in my little studio, and I paint my little heart out. And sometimes it works out, and sometimes it's just ugly. But at least I'm able to have that time to myself; I paint, it's mindless, and it takes my mind off of work. So, for me, these are things that I practice—oh, and I listen to a lot of audiobooks. So, that really makes a difference.

Atrisha Lewis
Great. So, there's actually a Law Society table here, and they'll be thrilled to hear your endorsement of the Member Assistance Program...

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Yeah.

Atrisha Lewis
...for lawyers and paralegals. But just building on, on some of your strategies, is there something lawyers and paralegals can learn from the experience of dealing with secondary trauma that you, you and your colleagues on the bench have developed?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Well, I think it's just always to be mindful. Mindfulness is, is the key, I think, when it comes to mental health, and to listen to when your body is speaking to you. Because we all know the feeling when something is not going quite right, and is to be responsive when that happens. And I think that's the cue. Because at times, if we're not responsive, we get to the point of no return, and that's when things really go and get awry. So, I think it's to be mindful, and listen to your cues, and when your body speaks to you.

Atrisha Lewis
Okay, great. So, last question, because I've been being asked to wrap up. So, your appointment as the first—and, and, and sorry, this is a bit of a departure from the discussion, but I think it's an important question—your, your appointment as the first Indigenous Judge to the Supreme Court is truly historic, and I know one that lots of people in this room were very excited to see, and experience, and, and, witness. Can you talk about the reception that you, and reaction you received, both from Indigenous communities, and outside the Indigenous community?

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
I have to say, I felt, it was really a welcomed addition. I, it was really, it was humbling, it was a proud moment. I was named, and started working at the Supreme Court in September 1st. And at the end of that month, I had been invited to give a keynote address at the Indigenous Bar. And there were hundreds of members there; and after I spoke, everyone rose, and I really felt the love, the appreciation, the pride. And that really touched me. And it, it—even recently, when I went to Chief Justice Leonard Marchand's swearing-in in Vancouver last, about a month-and-a-half ago, there was an Indigenous lawyer who came to me, and she introduced herself. We chatted, and at the end, she says, "Can I show you something, Your Honour?" And I said, yes. So, she takes out her phone, and opens her Instagram, and goes back to September 1st, the day I was sworn-in. And it's a picture—it's a cake, with my face on it, a picture of me. And "We're so happy that Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin has been named to the Supreme Court of Canada." And she talked to me about how the local bar, and her friends, had organized a celebration to honour that accomplishment. So, for me, that really touched me, to think that others were celebrating along with me.

Atrisha Lewis
Lots of people were celebrating along with you. I, I know when you were appointed, Caitlin, this she was immediately trying to get you to come here on this platform. So.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Thank you.

Atrisha Lewis
All right. Thank you very much for coming all the way from Ottawa, and taking time to have this really important discussion with us about mental health, and where we're going.

The Hon. Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin
Thank you. Merci beaucoup. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Sal Rabbani
Thank you. Thank you, the Honourable Madam Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin, and Atrisha Lewis, and thanks again to all our sponsors for their support, and everyone joining us today in person or online. As a club of record, all Empire Club of Canada events are available to watch and listen to on demand on our website. The recording of this event will be available shortly, and everyone registered will receive an e-mail with the link.

Join us on April 30th, as the Empire Club of Canada is excited to host the Honourable Dr. Andrew Furey, Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, to share a, a look at the momentum across sectors in his province, and his government's ongoing work to position Newfoundland and Labrador to fully maximize its potential. On Thursday, May 9th, join us, and be with OMERS President and CEO Blake Hutcheson, to hear about how his Canadian success story—or how this Canadian success story, is positioned to deliver for its members, that is OMERS, in the years to come, and the positive impact that their pension promise is having on our province, and national economies.

Thank you for your participation and support. Good afternoon, please take this time for continued networking. This meeting is now adjourned.