The Honourable Doug Downey in Conversation with Vivene Salmon

December 3, 2020

The Empire Club of Canada Presents

The Honourable Doug Downey in Conversation with Vivene Salmon

Chairman: Antoinette Tummillo, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada

Moderator
Vivene Salmon, Past President, Canadian Bar Association

Distinguished Guest Speakers
Carol Wilding, President & CEO, CPA Ontario
The Honourable Doug Downey, MPP, Attorney General of Ontario

Introduction
It is a great honour for me to be here at the Empire Club of Canada today, which is arguably the most famous and historically relevant speaker’s podium to have ever existed in Canada. It has offered its podium to such international luminaries as Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, Audrey Hepburn, the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, and closer to home, from Pierre Trudeau to Justin Trudeau; literally generations of our great nation's leaders, alongside with those of the world's top international diplomats, heads of state, and business and thought leaders.

It is a real honour and distinct privilege to be invited to speak to the Empire Club of Canada, which has been welcoming international diplomats, leaders in business, and in science, and in politics. When they stand at that podium, they speak not only to the entire country, but they can speak to the entire world.

Welcome Address by Antoinette Tummillo, President, Board of Directors, Empire Club of Canada
Good afternoon, fellow directors, past presidents, members, and guests. Welcome to the 117th season of the Empire Club of Canada. My name is Antoinette Tummillo. I am the President of the Empire Club and your host for today's virtual event, featuring the Honourable Doug Downey, Attorney General of Ontario, in conversation with Vivene Salmon, Past President of the Canadian Bar Association. They will be discussing how breakthroughs in moving legal services online during COVID-19 have reset the expectations for how justice can be done in Ontario.

I want to take a moment to recognize our sponsors, who generously support the Empire Club and make these events possible. Our Lead Event Sponsor today is CPA Ontario. Our Season Sponsors are the Canadian Bankers Association and Waste Connections of Canada. I also want to thank Our Event Partner, VVC and livemeeting.ca for webcasting today's event.

Now, for a few logistical items to share with you before we get started. If you're finding your internet is slow, please see below and click the "Switch Streams" button. And if you're experiencing technical difficulties, our team will be happy to assist you. There is a "Request for Help" button available to you.

It is now my pleasure to call this virtual meeting to order. Technology and innovation have transformed nearly every part of life in Ontario. But the province's justice sector has stood still and fallen behind. The COVID-19 pandemic exposed the severity of these challenges, and Attorney General Doug Downey has responded by accelerating the pace of justice modernization in Ontario. These breakthroughs have reset the expectations for how justice can be done in Ontario, and they open new possibilities for expanding access to justice in every region of the province, including rural, northern, and Indigenous communities. Carol Wilding, President and Chief Executive Officer at CPA Ontario, will now have the pleasure of introducing Attorney General Doug Downey.

Opening Remarks by Carol Wilding, President & CEO, CPA Ontario
Thank you, Antoinette, and good afternoon, everyone. It's my pleasure to be here with all of you—virtually, of course. I think it's in times like this that it's more important than ever for us to stay connected. And so, I'm pleased that we're able to gather here today for an important conversation. Since becoming Ontario's Attorney General, today's speaker has made it his top priority to bring the province's justice system into the 21st century. With extensive experience in politics, from serving as an Orillia's City Councillor to becoming a provincial legislator, it should come as no surprise that Minister Doug Downey has been steadily tapped for greater and greater roles in the current provincial government.

As a newly-minted MPP from Simcoe County, where he has moved quickly through the ranks, going from Deputy Government Whip to Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance, and now to Attorney General, where his extensive legal training and experience serves him well. His mission to modernize our justice system gained urgency in the early days of the pandemic, as frontline operations within the justice system were forced to adapt in order to protect public health. Attorney General Downey quickly acted to make changes that moved the justice system forward by decades, simplifying processes, enabling remote technology, and moving services online.

But he's not stopped there. While Attorney General Downey is well known for his work in the justice system, he is also a strong advocate for Ontario's accounting profession. In fact, his sister is a CPA, and even before becoming Attorney General, he was familiar with our profession—something that we sincerely appreciate. As I always like to say, Minister, it's always good to have a CPA in the family. Now, as the Minister responsible for oversight of CPA Ontario, he has regularly championed our work to maintain high standards, protect the public, and promote regulatory efficiency. I look forward to hearing more from him today about his plan to build a modern and more accessible justice system for Ontario. Please join me in welcoming the Honourable Doug Downey, MPP for Barrie-Springwater-Oro-Medonte, and Attorney General of Ontario.

The Honourable Doug Downey, MPP, Attorney General of Ontario
Thank you so much, Carol, for that kind introduction. And thank you, also, to CPAO for the sponsorship. For those of you who didn't know, as Attorney General, professional accountants, as Carol just said, are one of four professions I oversee in Ontario. And I've had the privilege to see the creativity and resilience that Carol's leadership has brought, not just during COVID, but as long as I've been able to work with her as AG. So, thank you, again, Carol. Many thanks, as well, to today's other sponsors, the Canadian Bankers Association and Waste Connections of Canada. And thanks, also, to all of you for joining. The times we're in have meant more of this type of interaction, and I know how busy we are, we're all still working to get this province through to the other side. So, I thank you for your time, and hope you'll leave today's discussion with some insight into how we've pivoted not only to keep the justice system running, but to also position Ontario's justice experience closer to the public's expectations.

Speaking to you today on this issue brings to mind some of the reasons why I made the decision to become a lawyer in the first place. I'd just finished a master's degree in judicial administration, studying systems and courthouse architecture, and rules, and why things are the way they are in the justice system. And at that time, I'd been working as a clerk in the courts. And it was my experience in that role that I first recognized the system needed profound change, in order to better meet the needs and expectations of people who are relying on it. I also realized that, as a clerk, I didn't have the levers I wanted to drive that change. And it soon dawned on me that becoming a lawyer could unlock opportunities to do so. So, I went to law school, and I fell in love with the private practice of law, and the chance to help people in new ways. But the more experience I gained helping people navigate this awkward and sometimes very broken system, one person at a time, the more interested I became in affecting structural change that could break down barriers across the system. I ran for provincial politics for one reason: to make change, so that I can fix things for thousands at once, rather than one at a time. And here I am, Attorney General of Ontario, helping to lead the most significant period of transformation that this province's justice system has seen in my lifetime.

It's important to acknowledge that the challenges we have faced in responding to COVID-19 are by no means behind us. In fact, some of the biggest hurdles remain ahead of us, as we plan for a strong and sustainable recovery, and get to the other side of a crisis that has been felt by every sector and every person in this province. I want to recognize the tremendous work of our frontline heroes in our hospitals, long-term care homes, grocery stores, schools, police stations, courthouses, and law offices. Throughout the pandemic, we've been focused on keeping Ontarians safe, and—a particular focus for me—maintaining the administration of justice, and that continues to be a top priority.

I'm sure many of you have heard how COVID's disruptive force has forced new approaches to urgent problems in various sectors. But what has been remarkable for the justice sector is how many lawyers, clerks, judges, and other participants were able to, finally and against all odds, cast aside historic distractions and stumbling blocks, to finally start getting the job done in dramatically new and effective ways. Each essential to the system in their own important ways, this vast roster of quote unquote "partners" were at long last collaborating in ways that suited today's challenges. We went from asking why? Why now? Why so fast? Why not wait and see? To instead asking, why couldn't we make this work? Why wouldn't we take a leadership role? Why shouldn't we take a leap and move Ontario ahead by decades? Why shouldn't Ontarians be able to expect reliability, accessibility, and an experience that aligns with the rest of the modern world?

This type of dialogue is very much reflective of the work I and my ministry have undertaken these past eight months to drive the most significant modernization effort the justice system has seen in most people's memory. Indeed, the recent breakthroughs we've made to move legal services online during COVID-19 have reset Ontario's expectations for how justice can be done, and, at the same time, reset our own perspectives on how to get things done. No one sector or community could or would claim to have a monopoly on the challenges that have emerged as a result of COVID-19. The justice sector, though, has been affected in unique ways, due to the complex and often unspoken interconnectivity of justice partners, including practitioners, the judiciary, court staff, support services, and individual users, who come together in each corner of our system thousands of times each day across our province. Keeping the system moving involves work done on the front lines, in full sight of Ontarians who depend on accessing justice, as well as behind the scenes, as thousands of people keep the wheels of justice turning. We hear the term "essential service" a lot these days. But I would suggest that justice is more than that. It is a value; it is a right; our foundation on which our province is built.

The pandemic has taught us many lessons. But perhaps what should be the starkest for all of us is that the justice system can't close in the face of these unimaginable odds. We have to lean into it; we have to find ways to not only make it work, but to make it work better. From the very beginning of the public health crisis, my ministry and the courts found ways to keep going. Realizing the risks of having large numbers of people congregate in courtrooms and judicial settings, we immediately set to work to move to remote hearings and help the courts with their suspension of in-person proceedings. The Ontario Court of Justice, which hears more than 90 percent of criminal matters in the province, immediately prioritized urgent matters, including child protection and serious criminal cases which required in-person hearings, and moved the rest to remote. While this is not an overnight transition, I think we even surprised ourselves by working together how quickly we were able to turn the entire system on its head. And it wasn't long before capacity was expanded to remotely conduct 100 percent of proceedings involving an accused person in custody.

The headlines talked about the use of Zoom to hold hearings in totally new ways, and the ability to participate from home. Behind the scenes, we were all hands on deck, making urgent and targeted investments to update technology in a sector where fax machines were still an acceptable way of doing business. We had to make sure the staff who had made the sudden shift to working from home had the right equipment to make an even faster switch to a virtual court environment—and I want to pause for a moment to thank all those individuals and, and groups that pivoted with us, thank you—this meant hardware, new software, training, new software itself, with an urgency that couldn't wait for the normal government timelines, or the answer to the ever-important question: why? Why so fast? Why not the way we normally do things? The answer, of course, in these times, was obvious.

Emergency meetings and late-night phone calls with senior members of the bench in government soon evolved into collaborative working groups, where we could pool our ideas and solutions, to start to move forward on substantive change. Quick thinking and action brought us solutions like remote attendance at court, digital signatures, where only hard copies were allowed before, electronic issuance and sharing of court documents, service by email, without the need for consent or court order. In fact, just last week, we worked with the Civil Rules Committee to formalize many of these changes and make them permanent, proof that we were right to move as quickly as we did. These changes actually made our system stronger, by making it more accessible to Ontarians and more resilient to whichever challenges the future might bring. For anyone of you who hasn't been involved in the justice system these past decades and is asking an obvious question, the answer is yes, we really did rely on fax machines, millions of pages of paper, and technology that was only slightly better than Morse code to share information. You may think I'm kidding, but until two days ago, Civil Rule 51.01(c) referenced telegrams. It now says email.

To give you an idea of the gap we closed, we went from an almost entirely paper-based system to being able to file almost 450 different documents online within months. We were suddenly in a world where 95 percent of civil proceedings were filed online, and over 70 percent for family matters. We also accelerated solutions we were already working on, so they could be of benefit faster. A huge milestone was fast-tracking a piece of legislation that had been originally part of the Smarter and Stronger Justice Act, introduced last December, to allow virtual commissioning and notarizing of documents. We saw an opportunity for delivering something faster, and we took it, accelerating access to justice, because it made sense, and it was the right decision. We also pivoted to accelerate a project to make information about court cases available online. Suddenly, reporters and other court users were amazed to learn that they could now log on to a website, rather than lining up at a courthouse to use an ancient terminal one at a time. I expect we'll look back on these terminals curiously as nostalgia, as we do pay phones today. Another game-changer was our acquisition of the cutting-edge Thompson Reuters CaseLines digital platform, a world leader in the industry, and now powering online and in-person hearings here at home in Ontario. Finally, we were starting to see pathways that took us beyond crisis response and to longer-term modern solutions that would accelerate justice delivery across Ontario.

Of course, we couldn't limit our changes to just new technology. The need for change went beyond remote hearings and file sharing, and even beyond our courts. We had to transform the way we do things, not just what we do. It is worth noting something you all probably already know: the legal system is so much more than lawsuits and courtrooms. I'm so grateful for the wide-ranging efforts of numerous practitioners and practice associations who we consulted with to respond to the needs of Ontarians dealing with estates law, property law, commercial law, construction law, and so many other areas. Their willingness to work quickly and closely with us facilitated advancements that will be an important legacy in these challenging times.

A great example of results driven by this very agile responsiveness from our partners is the rapid modernization we undertook in the estates world. Orders were made to allow wills to be witnessed virtually, so Ontarians wouldn't need to meet with lawyers and paralegals in their driveways and on the hoods of cars to formalize their affairs. We expanded the number of probate court documents that could be e-filed, and began to ask why—there it is again—why can't we make the entire wills and estates process easier? And a vast consultation began. These quick solutions are continuing to propel us forward in modernizing an archaic system, and I look forward to sharing more in the coming weeks and months on the work that is well underway.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been in this system in many ways for a long time, and I've seen it through a number of different lenses: the court clerk position, the court registrar, as an academic, as a law student, as a practitioner, and now as a politician. And I can tell you, I've never seen anything like it. So, when I say we move the justice system forward by decades and months, I can assure you—and I think many lawyers listening today will agree—it is not an exaggeration. We could see the culture was changing, and we were building muscle memory around finding the most direct and sure path to fixing problems. Resistance to change was finally giving way to the recognition that we could not return to how it used to be.

Then, something happened that succinctly demonstrated that Ontarians weren't just starting to notice these changes; they were participating like never before, and their expectations were changing. Last June, more than 20,000 people logged on to watch a livestream where a Superior Court judge delivered a sentence in a high-profile case. We'll never see a courtroom that big in Ontario, unless we start using stadiums built for hockey, baseball, or basketball. In September, the Superior Court reported that 50,000 hearings had been conducted virtually, in a province where this was all brand new. Both inside the system and outside of it, we knew we weren't turning back. Perhaps the biggest lesson we learned—and I'm sure this is not unique to the justice sector—is that we need to move beyond trying to solve yesterday's solutions, and instead, use this as an opportunity to address tomorrow's sustainability and resiliency. We also learned that we can't be afraid of changing the paradigm, even if that means rethinking what used to be viewed as golden rules, or generally accepted wisdom on how to make things better.

For us, that meant we had to decide: do we keep putting taxpayer resources behind the same plans and presumptions that have led us to this breaking point? Do we throw money at the problem and pretend we're doing something—which is the lazy and irresponsible answer some governments give when they don't know what else to do—or do we take an approach that is based on innovation, agility, and, in some cases, disruption? That last one has, it's become something of a term of pride and excitement in the private sector, but still raises more than a few eyebrows in the justice world. One of my favourite examples of how disruption can revolutionize society is how the proliferation of mobile phones allowed some regions of the world to skip the stage of overcoming a landline in the phone infrastructure deficit. A 2005 New York Times headline read, "Cell Phones Catapult Rural Africa to 21st Century." The way I see it, we've reached a turning point with an opportunity to make a quantum leap forward, accelerating justice, accelerating modernization, and therefore, justice delivery across Ontario in a way that not only transforms how people access justice, but makes it a system people can come to trust and rely on again.

So, we won't wait. And in fact, we stopped waiting to take action, when we saw not only the opportunity, but the absolute imperative to forge ahead. In May, we announced the decision not to proceed with the Halton Region Consolidated Courthouse construction project, a large expensive project that had been developed years ago as an answer to an outdated question. And it would have been irresponsible to move ahead with it, knowing what we knew then, and what we know even better now. It was time to, literally, put our money where our mouth is, and start radically rethinking how we invest taxpayer money to benefit everyone more in the near and long term, instead of staying mired in an outdated paradigm. We needed a new vision for the outdated courthouses in Milton and Burlington that Halton would have replaced. We will preserve these critical points of access, with a commitment to renovate, redesign, and transform these spaces into modern justice hubs that will have a broader reach, and technology reflective of the world we live in. Instead of accepting old decisions and ways of thinking, we took an approach that embraced the power of disruption that has driven advances in so many other sectors that Ontarians interact with every day. And we did it, and are doing it, by working with the community, justice partners, and the legal profession.

We have a chance to make Ontario home to the courthouse of the future, and this is just the beginning. These initial steps are putting us on a path to totally new ways of how we approach capital and other investment planning for the justice sector. My ministry is the second largest property manager in government. So, we have our work cut out for us to reimagine what that can look like, and what we can achieve. My ministry is also one of the largest employers in the provincial government, so we know we have a leadership responsibility in terms of how we deliver justice services and experiences. By deploying modern technology to broaden the reach of existing courthouses and services and focusing investment on smarter new builds in our communities, we will enhance current access points, create new virtual ones, and overall, create a stronger and more resilient network of justice services for Ontarians. Enhancing our reach through technology will bring justice closer to individuals that need to engage with the system and will redefine what access to justice means. There is an opportunity, here, to revitalize the role of the justice system in our community, to move past the long-held perception of delayed, unresponsive, creaking wheel of frustration, to a dynamic, accessible, and transparent system that people can actually rely on to see their critical issues addressed in a timely way that actually makes sense.

This strategy is complemented by other initiatives our government is executing, including the government-wide digital-first modernization being driven by Minister Bethlenfalvey, and Ontario's Broadband Strategy being led by Minister Scott, that will provide key infrastructure and internet access to more Ontarians that need it. It is, honestly, tremendously exciting to think about how we can break down those barriers to justice that have been part of the landscape for rural, northern, and Indigenous communities for so long. I'll give you an example that few of us here have to think about on a daily basis: currently, remote communities are served by a fly-in court model, where sometimes, the victim and the accused are ferried between locations on the same puddle-jumper of a plane to attend court. Think about that for a moment. The issues around access to justice, victim trauma, and government expense are sobering. We're duty-bound to take these challenges head-on, and we now have the momentum to do it.

As we rethink bricks-and-mortar construction and rebuild our technological infrastructure, inside this system, we must continue updating judicial procedures, and court and tribunal processes to lend more horsepower to the transition toward a seamless, and end-client experience. There's been so much of this type of innovation in other sectors such as banking, and retail, and travel, that have dramatically increased the quality of life for everyone here at home and around the world. This very issue is driving me into my ministry to create a user-focused experience—something that Ontarians expect and demand in almost every other sector. And I still haven't heard a good answer to explain why we can't expect the same thing in the justice sector. Imagine if we approach the design of a courthouse with just some of the customer service elements you see in an airport. Both have a high volume of pass-through clients every day, with many spending time waiting for an appointment or completing their business. If someone needs to be in the courthouse, we can do a lot better on what that experience looks like. Consider the approach taken by tech giants like Shopify and Amazon, who consider carefully the number of clicks a client has to make in completing their transaction as a basic, important data metric. Imagine the possibilities if we applied that to making the justice system easier to use and navigate online.

Answering these questions is essential to achieving that quantum leap I was talking about, moving forward to answer tomorrow's challenges today, and leapfrog past the outdated problems of yesterday. One of the undeniable truths facing us is that for us to succeed, we need more ideas, more innovation, and more perspectives, to continue breaking down barriers to a better justice experience for Ontarians. Crowdsourcing better solutions and using competition to drive innovation is by no means a new concept. But it is long overdue for Ontario's justice sector to tap into it. That is why we need to be championing the creation of things like innovation hubs that can engage directly with innovators, entrepreneurs, and tech-savvy players, to contribute directly to our transformation. Reaching out beyond the justice sector for non-traditional ideas to shape Ontario's justice experience is, in my view, critical to us succeeding. Imagine seeing private sector players or academic institutions compete in a type of Justice X-Prize to accelerate justice in Ontario. A platform that could launch new ways of answering the challenges facing us. We may not build a rocket ship to Mars, but an app that lets you schedule your court appearance from your phone would be a good start, from where I'm standing.

Let me go back to the twenty thousand accounts that logged into the livestream of that sentencing in June. Why shouldn't we be able to access all public hearings with a single click? Why couldn't we make this available on YouTube channels? A simple thing for most of you listening. But for many, it's viewed as too much, too fast, and far too disruptive. Are we ready for it? It's a discussion worth having. And I'm excited to engage in it. It's these types of discussions that need to be taking place across the sector to drive the changes we desperately need.

The pandemic showed us in stark terms how far behind Ontario's justice system had fallen. New thinking and quick action put us on a path that can actually achieve what Ontarians have been crying out for. For decades, we became numb to hearing that justice delayed was justice denied, paralyzed by the scale of what needed to be done. Now, we know better, and we'll do better. Truth is, the naysayers won't recognize the system they think they're protecting; it has changed forever. In this new approach, justice accelerated means justice delivered. We're just getting started, and I can't wait to see where we get to. Thank you. Merci. Miigwetch.

Antoinette Tummillo
Thank you, Minister Downey, and welcome back to the Empire Club. An I'm really looking forward to your conversation with Vivene Salmon. We're already getting a lot of questions in. So, for those of you who don't know, there is a question box, so send the questions in.

And I'm just going to take a minute to introduce Vivene Salmon. And Vivene, welcome back as well. You've been with us a few times this year, so nice to see you again. Now, Vivene Salmon served as President of the Canadian Bar Association from 2019 to 2020. She's the first racialized person and first female corporate counsel to hold that position at the Canadian Bar Association. Vivene is dedicated to improving access to the justice system for average Canadians, and improving how it functions for those working in the justice system. She's volunteered as a board member on several nonprofit community boards, including Food for Poor Canadians, an international charitable organization, which supports building schools in the Caribbean and Latin America. Vivene earned her Juris Doctor from the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law and was called to the Ontario Bar in 2010. She is also a Certified Information Privacy Professional and holds a designation of CIPP/C from the International Association of Privacy Professionals. In 2020, Vivene was honoured as a Top 100 Canadian Black Women to Watch, Top 25 Women of Influence, and was named a Top 25 Influential Lawyer by Canadian Lawyer magazine. Wow, Vivene. Over to you, now. We're looking forward to the conversation.

Vivene Salmon, Past President, Canadian Bar Association
Thank you very much, Antoinette. It's a pleasure to be here again. And welcome, Minister Downey. First, Minister Downey, I wanted to congratulate you for the role that you've played in modernizing the justice system. I think it's a very challenging one, and I think it's something that all Canadians are very interested in learning more about, and I do think, appreciate all your hard work today. So, maybe, I'd like to start first by talking about something you mentioned briefly in your speech, and that's perhaps talking a little bit about the shift in legal culture. So, you've played many roles in the court system over the length of your career; you know very intimately the culture, the legal culture, the justice system. First of all, is it difficult to change an entire mindset, and is there truly a need for long-term culture shift to ensure that we properly carry out justice during this pandemic? And what do you see as a comparison to other countries, in terms of how we evolve, make an evolution to a culture shift within the Canadian legal profession?

The Hon. Doug Downey
It's a great question. And so, how do you shift a culture? You know, you can, I can tell you, in terms of making change, there are times where, you know, you try and push for the change, and there's times where you try and pull for the change. So, if I can use a Judo analogy, maybe, you can use the weight of momentum to take it in a direction. I think there were things happening—like, make no mistake, the justice partners were critical in the change that you've seen happen. This is not one person, one office who has done this; this is an entire culture shift. And so, it's recognizing the momentum of what's possible, and trying to take that momentum and move it. The culture shift, honestly, is like nothing I've ever seen before. And part of that is because the legal community knows what the problems are; they just didn't know how to get the solutions. They're committed to their clients; they want the best for their clients; they want the best for people who are on the margins of society who are encountering the system that is very confusing. I can tell you, we, I just changed the family law appeal routes through the Moving Ontario Family Law Forward Act, literally a month ago. I talked to senior practitioners who found it confusing, these appeal routes. So, how can an individual encountering this very foreign world at a time of stress in their life experience it better? I think we've still got a lot of work to do on that, creating pathways, but the culture shift is happening because people are willing to let it happen.

Vivene Salmon
Thank you. And maybe let's shift gears a tiny little bit. And I guess part of that culture shift is talking about some of the initiatives you've mentioned that your government is undertaking to modernize the justice system. And maybe we can talk, or drill down a little bit to talk about some more specific initiatives, and the impact that they have on the justice system? One of them is CaseLines, which, my understanding is, is a British system. And maybe you can explain a little bit about what it is, the impact that it has, and how long you think it would take to get up and running, and be more effective in rolling that out in Ontario?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, Thompson Reuters CaseLines, just for those who don't know—and if you're not working with it, you wouldn't know—it's a, it's an online cloud-based portal that you can file any kind of document, any size of document. So, we'll start with that. You can also do it 24/7. So, which, in the modern world, not everybody works nine-to-five. So, CaseLines is a platform that allows for all sorts of different levels of use. You can have redacted documents easily; you can have access to justice happen, because reporters can sign up for access to some cases; the public can. It leaves the judge in control of the proceedings—as it should—but the ability to collaborate is unbelievable. It's phenomenal. I mean, I remember in my early days of practice, the boxes upon boxes upon boxes of materials, factums, and evidence. And all of that can go in there and be managed in a way—it's a little hard to describe, but it's revolutionary in terms of how we practice law, and how we manage documents.

So, when can we get it across the province? Because we have it launched as, you know. You can now file 450 forms, more online, family and civil. We're moving at breakneck speed to get every single one, that we can so that can be integrated into the system. When will we have it across the province? Not soon enough for me, is the answer. We push. I think you'll find people who are working on different projects in different areas, whether it be estates or otherwise, that I'm really asking, why can't we do this now? Let's look at a different way, and let's get some of it out there. It's going to come soon. We're going to get it out across the system soon. I can't even, I cannot understate how it is transforming how trials will happen, and how the business community and the individuals coming into the system will be treated differently.

Vivene Salmon
And are there any negative impacts, in terms of the way technology is being used? We have these digital document-sharing platforms everyone has become so familiar with: Zoom, Microsoft Teams. All these kinds of tools that really are not developed by government; they're private sector tools that we use. What are the, maybe the negative impacts, in terms of using third-party tools in how we communicate in courtrooms, and how we do legal transitions?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, I would have to say, in modernization, one of my early parts of focus before the pandemic was, we can talk about what functionality we need, but let's look at what innovation is already out there, right? We don't need to recreate a platform for video conferencing when we have Teams, and Zoom, and we have these others. We don't need to have an Ontario-made internal government product. So, I'm going to start there and say that. The thing that we have to be aware of—and again, the justice sector is so much more than lawsuits and courtrooms—we have to be aware of the people using the system and what their capacity is. We have to right-size the ability for people to meaningfully participate in the justice sector. And that means being not—you and I may know, Teams and Zoom, and it's pretty easy for us; there are people who if they have a cell phone may only have 100 minutes on it for the month. We have to be conscious of the user. So, we're making conscious efforts to design the system for access to this new electronic world that we're, that we've moved to.

Vivene Salmon
And when we think about that new electronic world and the impact on communities, when we think about internet and technology, these are things that are very expensive in the North, as an example, and have an impact on Indigenous communities. What is your government then doing to invest in technology in northern communities, helping ensure that justice is delivered, and the digital platforms and the innovation touches the farthest corners of the province that can assist in administrating justice better?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, really, really important area, because for too long, rural, and Indigenous communities have not necessarily been served, like I say, in that right-sizing way. We have investments in technology in some areas that—for the health department, for instance—that maybe we can use in the justice world. There are ways that we can break down the silos and use existing infrastructure. But we know there's not enough infrastructure. And that's why Laurie Scott just recently doubled our investment in broadband. I have a, within MAG, within the Ministry of Attorney General, there's the Indigenous Justice Division, which helps guide how we move forward, and helps us prioritize what's happening. But again, it's not just doing more of the same. And that's part of this transformation. And as Richard Susskind says, "We're not just automating the justice system; we are transforming the justice system."

So, we've launched—actually in London, that's launched, and we're working on the launch for Kenora—of a Justice Centre. And to give a sense of what that is, if you can imagine a courthouse with all the social services, with an office in that courthouse, and an individual comes before the court for some reason and, really, their underlying challenges, whether it be housing, or food, or mental health issues—those social services are there to help get the person onto a better path. We, of course, can't make room in all the courthouses; but we've created Justice Centres, which do it in reverse. We have a judge, and we have a Crown, and we have some of the other machinery of government in the space of a hub of social services. We can do things differently. And I'm very excited about that. We have more coming; it's very innovative. We got the idea from a Justice Centre in Red Hook, in New Jersey; very successful. So, I'm excited about new programs like that that just do it totally differently.

Vivene Salmon
So, Minister Downey, let's switch gears a bit. Maybe we could talk a little more about access to justice. Right now, the public's confidence in the justice system is weak; I definitely would not say it's strong. The average Ontarian, I dare say, feels that access to justice is really beyond their grasp. I think Ontarians increasingly are representing themselves in legal matters, and even forgoing justice, really, altogether. And when we think even more about that, costs are prohibitive or, in many cases, disproportionate to the actual value of the outcome of any case they might follow through to go to court. You know Chief Justice of Ontario, Chief Justice George Duthie very well. Back in September of last year, he said that cuts to Legal Aid Ontario will force many people to self-represent. He said, "What we judges can say is that reducing legal representation for the most vulnerable members of society does not save money. It increases trial time, places greater demands on public service, and ultimately, delays and increases the cost of legal proceedings for everyone." So, in this context of modernizing the justice system and improving access to justice for all people in the province, what is your government, then, now, doing to invest in Legal Aid?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, Legal Aid is a very high priority for me. But let me say this: in terms of access to justice, we've been talking about it—and as you know, Vivene, because I was Treasurer and Secretary of the Bar Association Ontario for some time, and involved in the legal community, I've been part of these discussions for a very long time. I helped found the Law Practice Program at Ryerson, and a variety of other things. We have this paradigm, where the answer is often: it needs more money. And I am convinced—and we're showing it through the changes we're making—the Gordian Knot that is the legal system is not necessarily a money issue. We have people who show up in a criminal court, nine- and ten-times' appearances. That does not make any sense. We need to do more measuring; we need to check the click-throughs on the service people actually need, make sure that the services they're getting, like I mentioned, the Justice Centres, you know, there are social services they need—not from the legal world; they need them in their social world.

We're modernizing Legal Aid. We're bringing technology to Legal Aid. Here's one click-through that I want to get rid of: when somebody's coming out for bail court, it's not uncommon for them, with the judge, to say, "Do you have Legal Aid?" And they say, "Well, no, I haven't applied yet." So, they're handed a slip—this is in the pre-video world—they're handed a slip of paper with a phone number on it. They sometimes think that is their Legal Aid ticket; that's the phone number they're supposed to phone to get Legal Aid. So, when they come up the next day, they have the ticket in their hand, they think they have Legal Aid. Well, that's just dysfunctional. That doesn't make any sense. Through technology, we can change that, and we can make sure that people are getting helped earlier, cheaper, we can take costs out of the system. And I think it's structural reform that's needed. It's not just throwing more money at each part that needs change. We've got to do the heavy lifting, and the justice partners are helping us do that. And you mentioned Justice Strathy. I was remiss in my remarks not saying how pivotal all three Chief Justices have been in this journey that we've been on, and that we're going through. They have been absolutely fantastic to work with and doing everything possible in their spheres to facilitate and work with us on working groups, and all sorts of things. So, there are answers out there, but it's not a simple dollar number.

Vivene Salmon
But let's talk a little bit about money. I know you've talked about it's not simply money and structural change. And there's many things that we can do to improve things that don't relate to money. But money is a factor. I think, to some degree, when we talk about investment in the justice sector as a priority for government, your government, and governments around the world in terms of dealing with COVID-19, that of course is a priority. But when we think about competing and trust, in terms of health and education spending, now, COVID, how do we then fund the justice system properly? And how has the COVID-19 pandemic shifted your government's ability to do this, and to do it so that we are making improvements, and we are modernizing, and we're modernizing for the long term, and for the benefit of all?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, so I will come back to the money. But I want to reinforce a lot of the changes that we've done are through administration changes, rules changes, structural changes that are not specifically big-dollar items. I mean, there are—when I say big dollar, I'm talking relative government terms. And those watching this conversation, I think, probably know that our health sector is 50 percent of every dollar we spend in this province, and the education sector is 25 percent. So, there's 75percent of every dollar we spend in those two sectors. So, it doesn't leave a ton of money on the table for everything else: social services, and justice, and all the other very important areas. We have to be very smart, and targeted, and precise in the asks that we make. And when I go to Treasury Board—because that's part of our process—the asks that I have are part of a larger vision, of what we need to do to bring resources to the forefront.

And again, I mentioned the size of our workforce. The Attorney General's Office has the second-largest frontline workforce in the government. We have a huge responsibility to make sure that those frontline workers are armed with the tools that they need to help the people who need the help. So, again, it's not all money; it's structural. But we are spending money where it's important. We've seen a rise in domestic violence. We've put more money into that through COVID, another five-plus million dollars into the human trafficking initiative for victims, for survivors, along with other investments for other areas of human trafficking. So, we're not adverse to investing money in the right spots. But it can't be the first answer every time.

Vivene Salmon
So, as part of that conversation then, let's go back, I guess, to our immediate legal community a little bit—we are part, both me and you are part of a broader legal community, here in Toronto, and you, as well, have been here in Toronto as a big part of your career. We know that many of our friends and other legal businesses around Ontario are really suffering a little bit, as they've gone through the pandemic, small business owners. So, can you tell us a little bit about what your government is doing to help small business owners, including small proprietors and small law firms across the province?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, if you don't mind, Vivene, I'm going to start with, with a perception. And I don't have data on this, but I believe it to be true: you know how everybody in rural areas—so, I actually practiced in Orillia and Simcoe County. I'm more of a rural—I had clients in Toronto, but they were like real estate transactions for recreational properties, that kind of thing. In a lot of the communities outside of Toronto—and I don't know in Toronto—but there are hospitals, there are doctor recruitment committees trying to bring doctors to the rural areas. It's a common, it's a common phenomenon across the province. BC went through an experience where they had the greying of the bar, the urbanization of law. I think that is something that we need to pay attention to. We talk about small businesses and small firms across Ontario. I can't think of one non-profit or charity that doesn't want a lawyer on their board. And it doesn't matter if it's Timmins, or New Liskeard, or Thunder Bay, or anywhere else; we need to make sure that we have viable and available legal resources in every community across Ontario.

So, that being said, what are we doing as a government? We're treating them like small businesses, so that they have access to some of the government supports. There—we could talk for an hour about the variety of federal and provincial supports. The feds are providing funding for some of the things that are supplementing ours; we're doing some others. We're getting hydro costs down, you know, we're, we've got PPE coverage for small businesses between two and twelve employees where you can apply for the thousand, we have Digital Main Street that will help people get online. We have a whole variety of programs that they can tap into. And I'll be honest, this is non-partisan stuff. If they contact their local MPP, they have access to these, they have access to the information on these. And they should be accessing them. We want people to be viable.

So, there are a variety of supports. I think it's also important that we have a strong and, and obviously viable, but a very strong regulator, so that it's doing the work that it needs to do. And we need to work in concert with, with each of the groups—and I'm not going to name all of them, but I'm going to name a couple. Like, we've talked about, you're a part of the Canadian Bar Association; we have the Federation of Ontario Law Associations; we have the Black Lawyers Association of Canada; we have Advocate Society. There are several—and I'm going to get in trouble for leaving some out—but we have some very earnest and dedicated people. We need to connect the small businesses to mentors and to other support structures.

Vivene Salmon
So, maybe then we can switch, again, then, to talking a little bit about diversity in the legal profession, because I think that is part of the conversation about innovating our justice system and ensuring that it is accessible and transparent. When we look at the Black Lives Matter movement that came to the fore this summer, overall, we've seen a continued cry, really, about the absence of, specifically, Indigenous and Black people serving on the bench and within the legal community. What practical plans has the government done to address this concern, in terms of diversifying our legal profession, particularly on the bench and in positions of power?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, so I'm going to talk first—I'm going to talk in my area, so, the things that I know well, and I know that we've done, and that we're doing—if we take the Justice of the Peace appointments process, I brought legislation, it was part of the Smarter Stronger Justice Act that received Royal Assent. In that, I specifically put that I want reporting yearly on who applies to become a Justice of the Peace, with data, who's getting interviews, who's getting chosen. I want light of day on this, so that we have a baseline. Right now, that information is not being collated, and it's not being given to the public. And this will be publicly, yearly, publicly put out there. I think we have to have an honest assessment of, of what's happening there.

The good news, I can tell you, is that after that reform we, two years ago, with the advertising for people to apply to be Justice of the Peace, the committee spent 250,000 dollars advertising. So, you know, that's a fair bit of money. This year, two years later, with our government, we spent 7,000 dollars, and we got more applicants. And I don't get to see the list until the final recommendation comes, but I asked for sort of an update. And the preliminary update is that we have significantly more diversity, we have significantly more Indigenous individuals who have applied for Justice of the Peace. And the reason for that is because we did it differently. We did it with less money, but we did it differently. We went to communities, we asked people to encourage people who are qualified to apply, and we're getting the result. So, that's one very small thing. I would like to do the same with judges. I would like to have light of day on, on who's applying, on, on who's getting the interviews; who's getting chosen. We don't have that; the federal government does a much better job on giving that information to the public. We're, I'm, we're not done that yet.

QUESTION & ANSWER

Vivene Salmon
So, I'm going to turn to some additional questions that are now coming in from our broader audience across the country. This individual is asking and saying: there are forms that are still not being accepted electronically for vulnerable low-income citizens. For example, the Landlord and Tenant Board does not accept the waiver signing email, clinics cannot follow these online on behalf of their clients. What steps are being taken to minimize this?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Well, what I can say is this: we, we've put a ton of forms on. If there's a form that you think should be automated, I want you to email: Doug.Downey@Ontario.ca. Tell us. If I don't hear from the front lines, if I don't hear from people in the trenches, I may not, I may not know. And so, I want to encourage people as they come across that or other innovations, we need to hear it. And then we can assess it, and we can see what's possible.

Vivene Salmon
Okay, thank you, Doug. Is consideration being given to introducing CaseLine-type of services for administrative tribunals?

The Hon. Doug Downey
So, I've been fairly public about it. I, back in January, when we could travel, I was out in BC, and I struck a deal with Attorney General Eby in British Columbia. They have an online tribunal system that is, really, quite fantastic. They have four years of experience with it. Here's the deal: he said you can have it for a dollar, as long as we get any upgrades you do to it. Now, there are costs in putting it together, and getting it up and going. But that's a priority for me. I want to see a change in how some of the tribunals are operating.

Vivene Salmon
So, Minister Downey, there's another question, and it is saying that, in this person's opinion, they feel that corners have been cut to fast-track hearings with the Landlord and Tenant Board, saying that these have jeopardized the principles of access to justice in the Ontario Human Rights Code. Legal Aid lawyers have been raising concerns, apparently, for weeks now, and have spoken to you about accelerating changes in the justice system, but that some of these changes are really impinging people's ability to be treated fairly in the justice system. So....

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah. I know that the tribunal, and the head of the tribunal, is actually engaged with ACTO—those of you in that sector will know who ACTO is. We're working with them, and with other clinics. We're making sure that if people need to opt out of some of the online pieces, that they have that option. I'm seeing a lot of commentary on Twitter and other social media about concerns in that area. It is something that we're, we're focused on. At the same time, we need to make sure that the administration of justice keeps moving, so that landlords and tenants, tenants who have concerns, can get their, can get their hearing as well. So, we are actively engaged in that, we're aware of the conversation. And, and making sure that we're running a professional and, and independent, quite frankly, tribunal.

Vivene Salmon
Thank you, Minister Downey. This question, I think, is coming from Northern Ontario: what steps is the government taking to address access to justice for people who do not have ready access to the internet, or comfort using that? I know you've addressed part of that before. But particularly, this individual is asking: how are we ensuring that women who have experienced intimate partner violence in Indigenous communities are protected, and in these technology changes that are happening, that their privacy is not violated?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Yeah, so we're, we funded quite a bit more—I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but we've put millions of dollars into support services that already exist. We're not creating new programs; we're using the existing pathways to support women in domestic violence situations or otherwise. We're also making sure that we have the appropriate resources in place for things like the [indiscernible] group, the partner group. We want to make sure that those resources are, are funded properly. We made, we put a call for need out to different groups of victim services, and they told us what they needed. And we funded a lot of those, whether it be technology, so their people could work remotely, or just basic resources. So, we continue to make sure that we're providing those supports on the ground.

Vivene Salmon
Thank you. And we have time for one last quick question: would you like to see electronic wills legislation passed in Ontario, and how likely do you feel this is going to happen in the near term?

The Hon. Doug Downey
Well, I'd like to see lots of things, and I'm pushing lots of things. There's innovation to be had in the estates area, there's innovation to be had in the real estate area, there's innovation to be had in the family area; we're not done any of them. So, we're having robust conversations with justice partners, with groups, we do Zoom calls, we do cross-checks. So, we're pushing advancements in every one of them.

Vivene Salmon
And lastly, how can we allow the judiciary to take a more proactive approach to court administration from the executive branch of government? And I think you probably have 30 seconds to answer that.

The Hon. Doug Downey
Sorry. How can I?

Vivene Salmon
How can we allow the judiciary to take a more proactive approach to court administration and changes in the justice system?

The Hon. Doug Downey
We have an awesome working relationship. I think we need to continue to collaborate and work together in tandem. That's how we got to where we are in the modernization. I think we need to do even more of that.

Vivene Salmon
Thank you, Minister. You have a herculean job. We're all learning how to live in this new world, but I can only imagine how difficult it is, and how exciting it is—and we hear that excitement in your voice—to really change an old institution that I think we, as Ontarians, will all benefit from. So, looking forward to you carrying forward all those great initiatives, and making everything so much more accessible to people. And not only accessible; accelerating things. And doing it all in a way that you've got an engine behind you right now that nobody ever expected. And we can see that you're really taking advantage of it. So, kudos to you and your team, and thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. Thank you, Vivene. You've done a great job again today. We ran out of time,, Minister. There were way too many questions—I'm sure you're not surprised. But again, thank you for taking the time to speak with our audience. I'm sure they appreciated hearing from you.

The Hon. Doug Downey
Absolute honour to be in front of the Empire Club. Thank you.

Note of Appreciation and Concluding Remarks by Antoinette Tummillo
Lovely. I do want to take a minute just to share with you some of our upcoming events. Tomorrow, we've got a Roadmap for Canada's Black Youth. December 7th, we've got Raul Bardwash, from the Institute of Corporate Directors. December 8th, we've got a post-COVID Small Business Success Panel—so that'll be an interesting discussion. And on December 10th, we're really excited about our Nation Builder of the Year Award. And, you know, it is our signature event. We are absolutely excited to be awarding it to frontline workers today, and we think they are the most deserving. So, do plan on joining us. We have a great roster of VIP celebrities and great testimonials that people have submitted that you will see online. So, please join us on December 10th, it is at noon. And there also is an opportunity, if you know a frontline worker that you think you should be submitting a testimonial for, do so; if you're a frontline worker. We have a random draw—we really did not want to pick any specific frontline worker, because there's way too many—but we will have a random draw for the, those testimonials that have been submitted for $5,000. So, registration for all these events is free. So, I hope to see you at our next virtual events. So, this meeting is now adjourned, and thank you all for joining us today.